NZ about to ratify Paris agreement – will they ask our opinion?

Paula Bennett says the Government intends to concrete the Paris agreement into place by the end of the year.

She will “within weeks” announce terms of reference and the members of an expert group that will help implement our transition to lower carbon emissions. They hope our trading friends will be mightily pleased by our righteous eagerness to save the planet. Or so they imply.

New Zealand to ratify Paris agreement this year

The Government plans to ratify the Paris agreement on climate change by the end of the year, Climate Change Issues Minister Paula Bennett says.

The agreement was finalised last December and made available for signature in April this year. Ratification is the formal step that countries must take to be full participants and to ensure the deal takes effect.

“The Paris agreement is historic and changed the way the world thinks about climate change. Ratifying it early reinforces our commitment to this deal and our support for the global momentum to grow with lower emissions,” says Mrs Bennett.

Under the agreement, each nation is required to set an emissions reduction target. New Zealand committed to reducing its greenhouse gas emissions to 30 per cent below 2005 levels by 2030.

“This is an ambitious target that won’t be easy for New Zealand to achieve. All parts of society have a part to play in the transition to a lower emissions economy, from central and local government through to businesses, iwi and communities,” Mrs Bennett says.

“New Zealanders are already doing a lot of work to reduce our emissions, from being more energy conscious through to some of the exciting changes in agriculture.

“No matter how much New Zealand reduces its emissions, we will still feel the effects of a changing planet if other nations do not make significant changes.

“It is clear that we need to be better prepared to adapt to these changes, so I am establishing a group of technical experts to look at things like the effects on infrastructure and economic growth.”

Terms of reference and membership for the group will be released within weeks.

The Government plans to finalize ratification before the UN’s Framework Convention on Climate Change conference in November.

The Paris Agreement and a National Interest Analysis will today be tabled in the House of Representatives for consideration by a select committee. The Government will then sign and deliver the ratification document to the United Nations in New York.

These two documents were tabled in the Parliament two days ago: the Paris Agreement and the National Interest Analysis. Nice that we’ve finally been given one of these—the ETS wasn’t treated with such respect. Mind you, I haven’t read it yet.

What transpires for the country will be determined by the membership of the “group of experts”, so picking them is crucial. Will the minister include  representatives of the country’s many highly-qualified climate sceptics or has she been required to stick with the activists from Victoria University and the Royal Society?

Why is the government keen to show “commitment to this deal” and “support for lower emissions” globally? What favours have we been promised in return? Are we simply trying to boost Helen Clark’s campaign for chief commissar (or whatever it’s called), knowing it will give the country a higher profile for several years?

This is for sure: all the spending on emission reductions will bring us nothing; all the income foregone for climate change will avail us nothing; all the zeal displayed for the Paris agreement will profit us nothing.

So we had better be very sure what we do, why we do it and above all who we do it with. That’s why I’ve volunteered to serve on the committee.

123
Leave a Reply

avatar
123 Comment threads
0 Thread replies
0 Followers
 
Most reacted comment
Hottest comment thread
6 Comment authors
SimonRichard TreadgoldAndyDennis N HorneRichard C (NZ) Recent comment authors
  Subscribe  
Notify of
Mike Jowsey
Guest
Mike Jowsey

Good on you mate. I’ll second your nomination. But it’s rigged, doncha know. We need a Trump-like independent to cut through the PC BS. Lacking that, we are doomed to live in paradise lost.

Richard C (NZ)
Guest
Richard C (NZ)

>Why is the government keen to show “commitment to this deal” and “support for lower emissions” globally?

a) Greenwash
b) Virtue signaling
c) Catering for the madness of crowds and their voting whims.
d) A firm but misguided belief that violations of laws of physics is allowable in this case because climate scientists know what they are talking about.
e) Combinations of a to d.

Richard C (NZ)
Guest
Richard C (NZ)

DPRK News Service @DPRK_News

“Mild Pacific storm season is attributed to benevolent climate policies of Supreme Leader Kim Jong-Un”

https://twitter.com/DPRK_News

Dennis N Horne
Guest
Dennis N Horne

The science is as certain as science ever is. Man must try to reduce CO2 emissions. It’s true NZ’s contribution is negligible. It’s true what the big polluters like China do is beyond our control, and if they don’t reduce GHGs fast enough NZ is going to be faced with massive costs to combat sea level rise anyway.

We can only do what we can based on the information we have. We need rational discussions. It’s going to be difficult.

How are those who refuse to accept the science going to help?

Andy
Guest
Andy

Dennis, if we are going to reduce CO2 emission by 30%, would you agree that the most efficient way would be to exterminate 30% of the NZ population?

I have looked at a number of other options and the numbers don’t really stack up, so it looks like mass killing is the only way forward.

Perhaps you can consult with Herr Thomas of Hot Topic who might have some practical experience in this area; he has expressed some desire to send people to camps etc

Just a thought

Dennis N Horne
Guest
Dennis N Horne

So this is your argument.

We cannot do anything.

Therefore the science is wrong.

So we don’t need to do anything; business as usual.

On yer bike, Andy, and keep pedalling those circular arguments…

Andy
Guest
Andy

No Dennis, I accept the science that catastrophic climate change is 100% certain (I don’t have any evidence but the local council agree and I don’t like to get offside with them because they empty my bins)

Therefore we need to start a mass extermination programme. I propose a series of death camps near Ashburton (handy for rail and lots of room for the bodies)

We can also burn the bodies in industrial size crematoria that could power the dairy factories in the area

Don’t you think my idea has merit?

Do you have better ideas?

Dennis N Horne
Guest
Dennis N Horne
Andy
Guest
Andy

Another random link from Dennis, no explanation, no words

Andy
Guest
Andy

Climate change activists suggest taxes that discourage childbirth

http://m.washingtontimes.com/news/2016/aug/19/climate-change-activists-tax-discourage-childbirth/?utm_campaign=shareaholic&utm_medium=facebook&utm_source=socialnetwork

See? My Malthusian ideas about extermination of the human race are quite trendy

Richard C (NZ)
Guest
Richard C (NZ)

Dennis

>”The science is as certain as science ever is”

Really?

Please explain then Dennis, why the earth’s energy imbalance at TOA (the IPCC’s primary climate change criteria) is only 0.6 W.m-2 and trendless but theoretical CO2 forcing is now 1.9 W.m-2 @ 400ppm and increasing?

And total theoretical forcing at TOA, including solar, was 2.33 W.m-2 as reported by the IPCC and obviously that’s increasing. The IPCC neglected to address the observations-theory disparity of course (too inconvenient perhaps – spoils the story).

Doesn’t this indicate to you Dennis that the Man-Made Climate Change theory is dead wrong?

Richard C (NZ)
Guest
Richard C (NZ)

>”How are those who refuse to accept the science going to help?”

That would be you Dennis.

I accept the Scientific Method..

I accept the IPCC’s science Dennis.

I accept the IPCC’s climate change criteria.

I accept the IPCC’s theory in respect to their criteria.

I accept the IPCC’s observations applicable to their criteria.

I accept there is a huge discrepancy between their observations in respect to their theory.

I reject Man-Made Climate Change theory in accordance with my acceptance of the Scientific Method.

This is my acceptance of the science Dennis. You apparently reject the Scientific Method. Why?

Richard C (NZ)
Guest
Richard C (NZ)

Dennis

Science and attribution are not one and the same.

The IPCC divides their assessment report appropriately:

Observations (objective science)
Theory and criteria
Attribution (subjective opinions)

In the case of ocean warming for example, the IPCC make attribution by speculation – they merely “expect” in their attribution process on account of their theory but they have no observation science to support what they “expect”. They don’t even address their primary TOA criteria in their attribution process.

Their attribution statement makes no recourse whatsoever to their primary climate change criteria.

You’re confusing objective science with subjective attribution opinions Dennis.

Richard C (NZ)
Guest
Richard C (NZ)

Dennis Horne – >”So this is your argument.”

We cannot do anything. Therefore the science is wrong.

No Dennis. That’s YOUR spin but you have it back to front in typical Warmy air-heats-earth form.

Our argument is this:

The Man-Made Climate Change theory is provably wrong, therefore we need not do anything

Do you see the difference now Dennis?

Richard C (NZ)
Guest
Richard C (NZ)

>”Please explain then Dennis, why the earth’s energy imbalance at TOA (the IPCC’s primary climate change criteria) is only 0.6 W.m-2 and trendless but theoretical CO2 forcing is now 1.9 W.m-2 @ 400ppm and increasing? ………And total theoretical forcing at TOA, including solar, was 2.33 W.m-2″

>The Man-Made Climate Change theory is provably wrong”

Discrepancy: 1.73 W.m-2 = 1.73 Joules per second per square metre of the earth’s surface.

Earth’s surface area: 510,100,000,000 m²

Excess energy introduced into the earth’s climate system by Man-Made Climate Change theory every second is therefore:

1.73 x 510,100,000,000 = 882,473,000,000 Joules = 882.473 GigaJoules per second excess.

Anyone still subscribing to Man-Made Climate Change theory has obviously not done the math.

Richard C (NZ)
Guest
Richard C (NZ)

NASA EARTHDATA – 3. Missing heat ‘Scientists search the deep oceans to balance Earth’s energy budget.’ by Laura Naranjo, October 13, 2015 […] CERES Net Downward Flux This image shows net downward radiation flux at the top of Earth’s atmosphere in watts per square meter. Blues indicate regions losing heat; oranges and reds indicate where heat is building up. Averaged over the globe for the 2001-2005 period, 0.51 watts per square meter of energy are accumulating, which is causing the planet to warm. Data are from the Clouds and Earth’s Radiant Energy System (CERES), which helps scientists understand Earth’s heat budget. (Courtesy R. P. Allan) This radiation exchange is best measured at the top of the atmosphere, where sunlight enters Earth’s climate system, and where orbiting satellites can act like a proxy thermometer. Allan’s team used data from the Clouds and the Earth’s Radiant Energy System (CERES) satellite instrument, launched in 2000, plus data from the Earth Radiation Budget Satellite (ERBS), which extended the record back to 1984. These data, obtained from the NASA Atmospheric Science Data Center Distributed Active Archive Center, captured incoming and reflected sunlight and emitted infrared radiation over the… Read more »

Richard C (NZ)
Guest
Richard C (NZ)

>”This is how they explained away the discrepancy in AR4 [Technical Summary]”

The AR5 Technical Summary is here:

Report by Chapters
Front Matter – 0.8MB
Summary for Policymakers – 2.3MB
Technical Summary – 18.1MB
http://www.ipcc.ch/report/ar5/wg1/

18.1MB (sigh) AR4 was much easier. It only takes a paragraph or two to falsify the entire conjecture but I’ll have a look anyway.

Andy
Guest
Andy

New Zealand committed to reducing its greenhouse gas emissions to 30 per cent below 2005 levels by 2030

Is that 2030 figure correct? It is only 14 years away. I would have thought a 30% reduction in emissions in 14 years is close to impossible

Should it read 2050?

Richard C (NZ)
Guest
Richard C (NZ)

>”Earth’s surface area: 510,100,000,000 m² Excess energy introduced into the earth’s climate system by Man-Made Climate Change theory every second is therefore: 1.73 x 510,100,000,000 = 882,473,000,000 Joules = 882.473 GigaJoules per second excess.” This is incorrect. The surface area to be used in that calc is the area of the top of atmosphere – not the earth’s surface. I’ll correct this when I’ve got the TOA surface area. Meanwhile the AR5 Technical Summary says this: TS.2.3 Changes in Energy Budget and Heat Content The Earth has been in radiative imbalance, with more energy from the Sun entering than exiting the top of the atmosphere, since at least about 1970. It is virtually certain that the Earth has gained substantial energy from 1971 to 2010. The estimated increase in energy inventory between 1971 and 2010 is 274 [196 to 351] × 10^21 J (high confidence), with a heating rate of 213 × 10^12 W from a linear fit to the annual values over that time period (see also TFE.4). {Boxes 3.1, 13.1} Ocean warming dominates that total heating rate, with full ocean depth warming accounting for about 93% (high confidence), and warming of… Read more »

Dennis N Horne
Guest
Dennis N Horne

Richard C (NZ). I look some stuff from the ‘sceptics’ and I look at some stuff from the scientists.

It has been known for ages CO2 causes Earth to retain more energy.

Earth is warming.

Only GHGs seem to account for that warming.

Every informed scientist on the planet accepts that.

If you think you have found a way to show that’s wrong, publish in a reputable journal.

Or at least try to get some backing from recognised ‘sceptics’, like Lindzen. Let me know how you get on.

Richard C (NZ)
Guest
Richard C (NZ)

>”This is how they explained away the discrepancy in AR4 [Technical Summary]” >”I’ll have a look [at the AR5 TS] The AR5 TS does not make a simple comparison of theoretical forcing to the observed energy balance as AR4 did. Instead, there’s a “Thematic Focus Element” (TFE) which includes graphs similar to Murphy et al (2009) and a long and internally contradictory explanation: TFE.4 | The Changing Energy Budget of the Global Climate System The global energy budget is a fundamental aspect of the Earth’s climate system and depends on many phenomena within it. The ocean has stored about 93% of the increase in energy in the climate system over recent decades, resulting in ocean thermal expansion and hence sea level rise. The rate of storage of energy in the Earth system must be equal to the net downward radiative flux at the top of the atmosphere, which is the difference between effective radiative forcing (ERF) due to changes imposed on the system and the radiative response of the system. There are also significant transfers of energy between components of the climate system and from one location to another. The focus here is… Read more »

Andy
Guest
Andy

Dennis Horne accepts that catastrophic climate change is happening

Woop woop woop

Are you onboard for widespread extermination of the human species Dennis?

Woop woop woop

Andy
Guest
Andy

It must be hard for Dennis to “accept the science” and keep on living
I don’t know how you keep going Dennis

If you need some funds for your trip to the Dignitas Clinic please let us know; I’m sure we can arrange a whip around

Richard C (NZ)
Guest
Richard C (NZ)

Dennis >”It has been known for ages CO2 causes Earth to retain more energy.” The theory has been known. But theory is not necessarily fact. Provably not as above. >”Earth is warming.” Yes, we know. But the atmosphere has not warmed this century (see last post thread for data) and the ocean warming can only be solar-sourced. And before the earth was warming (since the LIA) the earth was cooling (since the MWP). And before that warming, before that cooling, and so on. What caused the Laurentide ice sheet to melt Dennis? Vintage SUVs? But the IPCC’s primary climate change criteria is the earth’s energy budget at TOA – not temperature. >”Only GHGs seem to account for that warming.” “Seem”? You don’t “seem” very convinced Dennis. Actually GHGs overshoot wildly (we’re talking 100s of ZetaJoules here Dennis). >”Every informed scientist on the planet accepts that.” Well yes, every scientist on the govt funded Man-Made Climate Change gravy train certainly is “informed” as to where their bread is buttered. But there are defections when careers are not an issue any more. Case in point: Judith Curry. Scientists not on the gravy train do not… Read more »

Richard C (NZ)
Guest
Richard C (NZ)

Dennis

>”If you really want to venture into the non-warmer non lukewarmer ‘sceptics’ lions dens then go somewhere like THS or PSI. Good luck in the latter BTW.”

As for Lindzen and Spencer, Watts and Monckton are Lukewarmers Dennis. Here’s the latest in an ongoing spat between them and the Slayers (PSI):

‘How Anthony Watts and Christopher Monckton Helped Prove Slayer Rationalism’

Published on August 15, 2016, Written by Joseph E Postma

http://principia-scientific.org/anthony-watts-christopher-monckton-helped-prove-slayer-rationalism/

Richard C (NZ)
Guest
Richard C (NZ)

Correction

>”Earth’s surface area: 510,100,000,000 m²
Excess energy introduced into the earth’s climate system by Man-Made Climate Change theory every second is therefore: 1.73 x 510,100,000,000 = 882,473,000,000 Joules = 882.473 GigaJoules per second excess.”

Should be TOA surface area = 4*Pi*R^2.
Where R = Earth radius + atmosphere depth = 6,371 km + 120 km = 6,491 km

TOA surface area = 4*Pi*6,491^2 km = 529,459,911,000 m²

Excess IPCC energy: 1.73 x 529,459,911,000 = 915,965,646,000 = 915.97 GigaJoules per second.

Actual earth’s heating: 0.6 x 529,459,911,000 = 317,675,946,600 = 317.68 GigaJoules per second

The IPCC cannot argue “an increase in outgoing radiation inferred from changes in the global mean surface temperature” (TS TFE.4,Figure 1 upthread) makes up the difference because outgoing energy (OLR) is already accounted for in the earth’s energy imbalance (0.6 W.m-2 at TOA).

And OLR at TOA is NOT increasing as upthread. And OLR is unrelated to lower troposphere temperature as upthread.

The IPCC case dissolves under scrutiny.

Richard C (NZ)
Guest
Richard C (NZ)

>”Excess IPCC energy: ………915.97 GigaJoules per second. [1.73 W,m-2 increasing]
>Actual earth’s heating: …….317.68 GigaJoules per second. [0.6 W.m-2 static]

This century the actual warming is constant at 0.6 W.m-2, but the excess IPCC energy is increasing. Just from CO2 the theoretical forcing increase is:

Theoretical CO2 dF = 5.35 ln(C/Co)

Examples:
Theoretical CO2 dF = 1.9 W.m-2 where C = 400ppm at 2015 and Co = 280ppm pre-industrial
Theoretical CO2 df = 0.42 W.m-2 where C = 400ppm at 2015 and Co = 369.52ppm at 2000

Actual TOA dF = 0 this century. Constant @ 0.6 W.m-2 2000 – 2010

Theoretical CO2 forcing is therefore superfluous. What reason then for NZ to ratify the Paris agreement?

Dennis N Horne
Guest
Dennis N Horne

Richard C (NZ). “What reason then for NZ to ratify the Paris agreement?”

Simple. The evidence is clear and the science incontrovertible. That is the consensus of the global scientific community.

If you want to contest that, publish in a reputable journal.

You don’t seem to be able to distinguish between scientific knowledge and scientific method.

You need to show, using the scientific method, that the scientific knowledge is wrong. That requires showing where it’s wrong and or giving an alternative explanation for the phenomena observed due to global warming.

This came up on kiwiblog:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RffPSrRpq_g
Richard Alley: “The Biggest Control Knob: Carbon Dioxide in Earth’s Climate History”

There are thousands of scientists explaining bits of the science. Have a look at some. Forget the conspiracy stuff. Try to understand what they’re saying.

Then maybe you might begin to understand where you are going wrong.

I mean, it is possible you’re wrong, isn’t it? Or is that a fate reserved for everyone else?

Richard C (NZ)
Guest
Richard C (NZ)

Dennis >”If you think you have found a way to show that’s wrong, publish in a reputable journal.” Don’t need a journal Dennis, I’ve published on the internet: IPCC Ignores IPCC Climate Change Criteria – Incompetence or Coverup? https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/52688456/IPCCIgnoresIPCCClimateChangeCriteria.pdf One of the 3 important notes in the introduction is this 3) There is a discrepancy between the IPCC’s theoretical values and observational data which Chapter 10 did not address. Theoretical values were reported in Chapter 8, observational data was reported in Chapter 2. Unless a rock-solid explanation for the discrepancy is forthcoming from the IPCC, the discrepancy is fatal to the man-made climate change conjecture. As you can see upthread, the IPCC’s explanation in an obscure “Thematic Focus Element” (TFE) in the AR5 WG1 Technical Summary (not a main chapter note) is somewhat less than rock-solid: The IPCC cannot argue “an increase in outgoing radiation inferred from changes in the global mean surface temperature” (TS TFE.4,Figure 1 upthread) makes up the difference because outgoing energy (OLR) is already accounted for in the earth’s energy imbalance (0.6 W.m-2 at TOA). And OLR at TOA is NOT increasing as upthread [see Graph: Outgoing longwave radiation… Read more »

Dennis N Horne
Guest
Dennis N Horne

Richard C (NZ). The scientific method involves publishing in a journal. If it’s a peer-reviewed journal climate scientists will read it and might take it seriously.

Your work may then be verified or refuted.

The only person you’re convincing on this blog is yourself. Not one scientist working in the field.

Richard C (NZ)
Guest
Richard C (NZ)

Dennis [Me] >“What reason then for NZ to ratify the Paris agreement?” [You] >”Simple. The evidence is clear and the science incontrovertible. That is the consensus of the global scientific community.” Rubbish Dennis. The evidence for Man-Made Climate Change is not only not clear, the theory wildly overshoots observations in respect to the critical criteria. And climate science as per IPCC reports “incontrovertable”? Get real Dennis. AR5 is internally contradictory for starters. The AR5 observations actually falsify their attributions. >”If you want to contest that, publish in a reputable journal.” Not necessary as already laid out. The IPCC reports are NOT published in a journal. A simple critique of their assessment is adequate i.e. like-for-like, assessment vs critique. Don’t bother trotting this out again Dennis – it’s getting tiresome explaining its stupidity. >”You don’t seem to be able to distinguish between scientific knowledge and scientific method.” Rubbish again Dennis. Introduction to the Scientific Method The scientific method has four steps 1. Observation and description of a phenomenon or group of phenomena. 2. Formulation of an hypothesis to explain the phenomena. In physics, the hypothesis often takes the form of a causal mechanism or… Read more »

Richard C (NZ)
Guest
Richard C (NZ)

Dennis >”The scientific method involves publishing in a journal.” No it does not Dennis. My response to this repeated nonsense from above: “Don’t bother trotting this out again Dennis – it’s getting tiresome explaining its stupidity.” There is no “publishing in a journal” step in ‘Introduction to the Scientific Method’ upthread. ‘Newton, Einstein, Watson and Crick, were not peer reviewed’ “Peer review by anonymous unpaid reviewers is not a part of the Scientific Method.” http://joannenova.com.au/2014/05/newton-einstein-watson-and-crick-were-not-peer-reviewed/ Martin Luther nailed his 95 theses to a chapel door i.e. the public domain – he did not seek prior review by the Vatican (natch). Now days I suspect he would use the internet. Same with our critique of IPCC dogma. And plenty of evidence that the IPCC gatekeepers block certain publications: Climategate Part Two: The Undermining of the Scientific Method “I can’t see either of these papers being in the next IPCC report. Kevin [Trenberth] and I will keep them out somehow – even if we have to redefine what the peer-review literature is! -Phil Jones email Jul. 8, 2004 http://www.passionforliberty.com/2013/08/19/climategate-coverup/ Again (sigh), simply critiquing a public domain IPCC assessment does not require journal publication. You’re just… Read more »

Richard C (NZ)
Guest
Richard C (NZ)

Dennis N Horne on August 21, 2016 at 10:28 pm said:

Richard C (NZ). “What reason then for NZ to ratify the Paris agreement?”

Simple. The evidence is clear and the science incontrovertible. That is the consensus of the global scientific community.

https://www.climateconversation.org.nz/2016/08/nz-about-to-ratify-paris-agreement-will-they-ask-our-opinion/comment-page-1/#comment-1507889

Except what I actually said was:

Richard C (NZ) on August 21, 2016 at 9:41 pm said:

Theoretical CO2 dF = 1.9 W.m-2 where C = 400ppm at 2015 and Co = 280ppm pre-industrial
Theoretical CO2 df = 0.42 W.m-2 where C = 400ppm at 2015 and Co = 369.52ppm at 2000

Actual TOA dF = 0 this century. Constant @ 0.6 W.m-2 2000 – 2010

Theoretical CO2 forcing is therefore superfluous. What reason then for NZ to ratify the Paris agreement?

https://www.climateconversation.org.nz/2016/08/nz-about-to-ratify-paris-agreement-will-they-ask-our-opinion/comment-page-1/#comment-1507882

So correcting Dennis in light of theory vs actual – “The evidence is [anything but] clear and the science [is not] incontrovertible. [The] consensus of the global [climate] scientific community [is wrong obviously].”

Nice try Dennis but no cigar. Sorry.

Dennis N Horne
Guest
Dennis N Horne

Richard C (NZ)

I have explained to you what you must do if you want to persuade the scientific community: Publish.

That is part of the scientific method. It allows the work to be reviewed, verified or refuted.

Incidentally the scientific method is what working scientists agree it is. And all the great institutions and societies accept the science of climate change as good science.

You don’t.

Well, you have a problem. Not them.

You can write as much mumbo jumbo on blogs as you like, nobody’s going to read it.

Andy
Guest
Andy

Maybe Dennis would be better posting links to naked statues of Donald Trump and Hillary Clinton, like he does at Hot Topic

Andy
Guest
Andy

Incidentally speaking of Hot Topic, my comment about Clinton being the most corrupt politician in US history got snipped as unsubstantiated

Guess Gareth didn’t watch Clinton Cash or the other doco about all those mysterious deaths

Anyway I digress ….

Andy
Guest
Andy

I thought the scientific method involves making assertions or conjectures that could be tested or falsified

I see little of that in climate science, which seems to be largely an exercise in looking for things that agree with AGW and ignoring evidence that counters it

Anyway, it is pointless writing these words because no one will read them,
As Dennis correctly points out

Andy
Guest
Andy

Speaking of experts, I have a meeting with the Ministry for Environment this afternoon

This may give me some more opportunities to insult people in person, as I did at our last community group meeting

Richard C (NZ)
Guest
Richard C (NZ)

Dennis >”I have explained to you what you must do if you want to persuade the scientific community: Publish” I don’t give a toss about the “scientific community” in regard to climate and the IPCC Dennis. I’ve already explained that. Public issues are for the public.This self explanatory critique is outside the “scientific community” in the public domain Dennis, If you cannot comprehend and have to plead “journal” that’s your problem. The IPCC published in the public domain, NOT in a scientific journal. IPCC AR5 WGI Technical Summary citation is this: 2013: Technical Summary. In: Climate Change 2013: The Physical Science Basis. Contribution of Working Group I to the Fifth Assessment Report of the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change [Stocker, T.F., D. Qin, G.-K. Plattner, M. Tignor, S.K. Allen, J. Boschung, A. Nauels, Y. Xia, V. Bex and P.M. Midgley (eds.)]. Cambridge University Press, Cambridge, United Kingdom and New York, NY, USA. I’m sure they checked spelling and punctuation at that “journal”. All they have done is put it all in the public domain Dennis, whatever subsequent critique takes place is in the public domain too. These are public issues not confined to… Read more »

Richard C (NZ)
Guest
Richard C (NZ)

>”TOA imbalance static – game over.” This is in respect to the IPCC’s primary climate CHANGE criteria, which is (abbreviated): FAQ 2.1, Box 1: What is Radiative Forcing? [A] – “The word radiative arises because these factors change the balance between incoming solar radiation and outgoing infrared radiation within the Earth’s atmosphere. This radiative balance [‘measured at the top of the atmosphere’] controls the Earth’s surface temperature” And, [B] – “When radiative forcing [‘measured at the top of the atmosphere’] from a factor or group of factors is evaluated as positive, the energy of the Earth-atmosphere system will ultimately increase, leading to a warming of the system. In contrast, for a negative radiative forcing, the energy will ultimately decrease, leading to a cooling of the system” https://www.ipcc.ch/publications_and_data/ar4/wg1/en/faq-2-1.html A valid CO2 forcing, by IPCC definition, requires the TOA imbalance to “CHANGE” in trend commensurate with CO2 increase in the atmosphere and the “forcing” derived from that. The imbalance trend has NOT changed this century, it is simply fluctuating and trendless (the IPCC concede that in WG1 Chapter 2). Certainly no “change” commensurate with CO2 forcing. Who out there in the emissions-taxed economy really needs… Read more »

Richard C (NZ)
Guest
Richard C (NZ)

Dennis

>”I have explained to you what you must do if you want to persuade the scientific community: Publish”

The NZCSC published their statistical audit of NIWA’s 7SS in a journal (de Freitas, Dedekind and Brill 2014).

Did that “persuade the scientific community”?

No.

Willie Soon publishes his work in scientific journals. Does he “persuade the scientific community”?

No.

Andy
Guest
Andy

I pointed out my maths for the 0.4/1.0m sea level projection at at recent community meeting and was told by council staff that it was “not helpful”

In general, a display of utter contempt was forthcoming. One Ecan councillor said it was “weird” that the community should be involved in determining the makeup of a peer review panel. One councillor, David East, one of the good guys in my view, said that the experience of local knowledge by residents was perhaps of greater value than a newly minted post graduate with an expertise in computer modeling. This comment was met with widespread derision

This is what we are up against, so simply asking people to publish isn’t very helpful

Richard C (NZ)
Guest
Richard C (NZ)

Dennis >”I have explained to you what you must do if you want to persuade the scientific community: Publish” The IPCC’s aim is not to ”persuade the scientific community”. Their aim is to persuade the world-at-large in the public domain. They published at a printer (Cambridge University Press) and have a dedicated website. The NIPCC’s aim is to offer an alternative climate assessment. They also have a dedicated website The Nongovernmental International Panel on Climate Change (NIPCC) is an international panel of nongovernment scientists and scholars who have come together to present a comprehensive, authoritative, and realistic assessment of the science and economics of global warming. Because it is not a government agency, and because its members are not predisposed to believe climate change is caused by human greenhouse gas emissions, NIPCC is able to offer an independent “second opinion” of the evidence reviewed – or not reviewed – by the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC) on the issue of global warming. http://climatechangereconsidered.org/about-nipcc/ And, Climate Change Reconsidered II: Physical Science is an independent, comprehensive, and authoritative report on the current state of climate science published in October 2013. It is the fourth… Read more »

Andy
Guest
Andy

The MfE draft guidance doc on sea level rise claims that SLR is accelerating in NZ and that the anthropogenic signal is clear.

Both statements are false

Richard C (NZ)
Guest
Richard C (NZ)

Also from NIPCC Publications page: In July 2014, Whitehead & Associates Environmental Consultants, in consultation with Coastal Environment and with funding from the NSW Government, produced a report for Eurobodalla Shire Council and Shoalhaven City Council titled “South Coast Regional Sea Level Rise Policy and Planning Framework, Exhibition Draft.” A careful analysis of this report produced by a team of scientists assembled by the Nongovernmental International Panel on Climate Change (NIPCC) finds it does not provide reliable guidance to the complicated issues of measuring, forecasting, and responding to sea-level rise. The authors observe that wide variations in rates of tectonic uplift and subsidence in different locations around the world at particular times mean no effective coastal management plan can rest upon speculative computer projections regarding an idealised future global sea level, such as those provided by the United Nations’ Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC). Coastal management must instead rest upon accurate knowledge of local geological, meteorological and oceanographical conditions, including, amongst other things, changes in local relative sea level. http://climatechangereconsidered.org/other-nipcc-publications/ Commentary and Analysis on the Whitehead & Associates 2014 NSW Sea-Level Report By Carter R.M., de Lange W., Hansen, J.M., Humlum O.,… Read more »

Richard C (NZ)
Guest
Richard C (NZ)

The IPCC derive “an increase in outgoing radiation inferred from changes in the global mean surface temperature” for TS TFE.4 Figure 1 because, as they put it, “As the climate system warms, energy is lost to space through increased outgoing radiation [OLR]”: TFE.4 Figure 1 http://www.ipcc.ch/report/graphics/images/Assessment%20Reports/AR5%20-%20WG1/Technical%20Summary/FigTS_TFE.4-1.jpg TS http://www.ipcc.ch/pdf/assessment-report/ar5/wg1/WG1AR5_TS_FINAL.pdf They discard the satellite measurements of which they say – “The top of the atmosphere radiative flux measurements are highly precise”. CERES OLR graph upthread vs UAH but Kiwi Thinker (Robin Pittwood) got hold of the NOAA’s OLR data and graphed it vs UAH and RSS: NOAA OLR vs Average of UAH/RSS 1979 – 2012 http://www.kiwithinker.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/10/OLWIR-Temp-and-SB.jpg The graph has an increasing linear trendline imposed on it by Robin but since 2002/2003 there has been no OLR increase. Actually a decrease 2003 to 2012. Certainly no increase 1979 to 2000 either. that was a flat fluctuation too. The hike only occurred 2000 to 2003. This data is what the IPCC describe as “highly precise” but promptly discard in favour of their theory. But the OLR data contradicts the IPCC’s “inferred” OLR increase this century. Again, as upthread and modified, The IPCC cannot argue “an increase in… Read more »

Richard C (NZ)
Guest
Richard C (NZ)

RT apologies. The previous comment referred below is in the wrong thread. Delete it maybe? I’ll copy it into the next post thread where it is appropriate:

Richard C (NZ) on August 22, 2016 at 10:54 am said: ‘The North Atlantic: Ground Zero of Global Cooling’

——————-
Sure. Done. – RT

Dennis N Horne
Guest
Dennis N Horne

Richard C (NZ) “And besides, as I’ve already pointed out, the final arbiter is NOT the “scientific community” – that happens to be the actual climate.” That is meaningless humbug, like the rest of your thoughts on the subject. Our best reality is the scientific consensus. Climate change isn’t just the balance of informed opinion of a few scientists today, it has a broad and deep agreement developed over many many years. It just doesn’t get any better than that. There is global warming and climate change as predicted. That is a simple statement of fact. Multiple lines of evidence demonstrate that to the satisfaction of the global scientific community. The IPCC comprises experts who give an opinion based on the evidence after studying the literature. That is a common function of science. There are a huge amount number of papers covering the enormous amount of work being done by thousands of scientists around the world. Solar output is not ignored. Stupid notion. You speak about Carter, de Freitas and Soon. Whatever they published was immediately debunked. Quite simply, wrong. Rubbish. Rejected. By everybody who knew what he was talking about. Now I… Read more »

Andy
Guest
Andy

“Whatever the published was immediately debunked”

How immediate? A nanosecond?

Andy
Guest
Andy

The IPCC comprises experts who give an opinion based on the evidence after studying the literature

Give an opinion? Don’t these “experts” publish their own material?

Andy
Guest
Andy

I went to a meeting last night where an MfE guy (Dan) listened to the local community and asked for our feedback on the process, so we shouldn’t assume that they are not interested in engaging the public

This was on coastal hazards, not the Paris agreement though

Richard C (NZ)
Guest
Richard C (NZ)

Dennis >”That is meaningless humbug, like the rest of your thoughts on the subject.” Sans actual rebuttal of anything. You’re way out of your depth on that aren’t you Dennis. >”Our best reality is the scientific consensus.” Our best reality is reality Dennis i.e. the actual climate. When the “consensus” is embodied in CO2-forced climate models the models are NOT reproducing 21st Century climate. >”It just doesn’t get any better than that.” Well no, the “consensus” doesn’t unfortunately. The IPCC admits CO2 forcing is at least excessive in their models, natural variation (MDV) has been neglected, and they are not modeling 21st Century reality. That’s about as good as it gets for the “consensus”. >”There is global warming and climate change as predicted. That is a simple statement of fact. Multiple lines of evidence demonstrate that to the satisfaction of the global scientific community.” Again. We know Dennis. We also know it was warming BEFORE the IPCC’s anthro attribution period begins in 1950. And warming and cooling before that. The problem is the period after 1950 – sifting out an anthro signal from natural variation (MDV). That has not been done yet because… Read more »

Richard C (NZ)
Guest
Richard C (NZ)

Dennis N Horne on August 22, 2016 at 7:08 pm said:

“Our best reality is the scientific consensus”

This has to be a Warmy classic from the otherworldly virtual-reality world of Warmer World.

Richard C (NZ)
Guest
Richard C (NZ)

‘Renowned professor exposes the money-making global warming gravy train’ by Thomas Richard, Blasting News on August 22, 2016 Shortly after Donald Trump reiterated his energy policies last week at a speech in Bismarck, North Dakota, the usual #Climate Change suspects crawled out of the woodwork to voice their opposition. Leading the pack was Michael Mann of “hockey stick” fame, a climate activist and professor of meteorology at Penn State, who said that Trump’s energy plan and policies would be an “existential threat to the planet.” After Mann made his comments, more climate experts (who are also on the mainstream media’s speed dial) jumped on the end-of-days bandwagon: Kevin Trenberth, Jennifer Francis, Katharine Hayhoe, James Hansen, etc… But according to emeritus Professor Michael Hart, who published the book, Hubris: The troubling #Science, economics, and politics of climate change, that shouldn’t come as a surprise. Why? Because climate change dogma has been turned into a grant-making gravy train that rewards the hysteria while starving out the doubters. The more Hart researched the global warming phenomenon, he quickly learned how the new regulations rolled out by the Obama administration and the United Nations are all backed… Read more »

Richard C (NZ)
Guest
Richard C (NZ)

““Our best reality is the scientific consensus”- Dennis Horne

Reminds me of the Mythbusters tee-shirt:

“I reject your reality and substitute my own”

Andy
Guest
Andy

Dennis accepts the science that catastrophic climate change is real and irreversible

So what is little Dennis going to do other than post links to articles about naked Donald Trump statues to Hot Topic?

Is he sitting by his computer having a little giggle?

Simon
Guest
Simon

Richard C (NZ) on August 23, 2016 at 9:24 am said:
I DO study the science and from the welter of literature it becomes perfectly clear that the IPCC’s case for CO2 is not only grossly deficient, it dissolves under scrutiny. The entire atmospheric-CO2-heating-earth’s-surface conjecture violates the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics and is contrary to the earth’s energy budget at surface cited by the IPCC (no net LWIR flux down – only net SW).
Oh dear, you’re starting to sound like this guy’s uncle:
http://www.stuartmcmillen.com/comics_en/hendrix-uncle/

Richard C (NZ)
Guest
Richard C (NZ)

Simon

Dennis’ argument reduces to – “consensus” and “publish”. Now you pop up with – “comic strip”.

Well, I can play this game too Simon. Your argument in now no more than “reduction to absurdity”:

Reductio ad absurdum

Reductio ad absurdum (Latin: “reduction to absurdity”; pl.: reductiones ad absurdum), also known as argumentum ad absurdum (Latin: “argument to absurdity”, pl.: argumenta ad absurdum), is a common form of argument which seeks to demonstrate that a statement is true by showing that a false, untenable, or absurd result follows from its denial, or in turn to demonstrate that a statement is false by showing that a false, untenable, or absurd result follows from its acceptance

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reductio_ad_absurdum

Have you got anything else in your box of tricks Simon?

Andy
Guest
Andy

There is always the SkS escalator graph; that seems to get them in hysterics

Simon
Guest
Simon

Some of your ‘proofs’ do fall into the reductio ad absurdum category Richard.
The escalator is a great chart because it shows the absurdity of the ‘pause’ argument. It won’t be long now until a 2016 data point will make the pause even more ridiculous.
I also haven’t forgotten that Richard still thinks that Gavin Schmidt has got it wrong and that 2016 won’t be the warmest year ever. I am expecting lots of hand-waving and pointing at satellite proxies of the lower troposphere. Don’t look too closely at the surface, you might not like what you find.

Andy
Guest
Andy

The pause is absurd, yet it seems to generate a lot of papers about it

Richard C (NZ)
Guest
Richard C (NZ)

Simon >”It won’t be long now until a 2016 data point will make the pause even more ridiculous.” Really? I don’t think so Simon. Just 5 months of data doesn’t make the pause go away, there’s a couple of years of La Nina to come yet. >”Don’t look too closely at the surface, you might not like what you find.” I’ve looked closely and I like it Simon: Latest GISTEMP July anomaly is 0.83. That’s only a little above the annual mean 0.66 that at 2013 was ENSO-neutral and typical of the 20th Century. The YTD average only has to fall another 0.189 over the next 5 months and Schmidt’s on a loser: GISS L-OTI Global 1998 0.63 << One third of all industrial CO2 emissions 1998 – 2012 2002 0.63 2003 0.62 2006 0.63 2007 0.66 2009 0.64 2012 0.63 2013 0.66 << ENSO-neutral 2016 0.83 << July anomaly and La Nina on the way 2018 0.66 << ???? ENSO-neutral Year Jan Feb Mar Apr May Jun Jul 2015 annual mean 0.87 2016 114 133 129 109 93 79 84 average YTD 1.059 and difference to 2015: 0.189 And Southern Hemisphere is… Read more »

Richard C (NZ)
Guest
Richard C (NZ)

>”The pause is absurd, yet it seems to generate a lot of papers about it” Considerable angst: ‘Tracking the Missing Heat from the Global Warming Hiatus’ By Christina Reed  21 May 2015 Despite indications that the Pacific Ocean is helping to take up the world’s missing surface heat, the heat doesn’t linger; oceanographers now find that heat has moved over to the Indian Ocean. https://eos.org/articles/tracking-the-missing-heat-from-the-global-warming-hiatus And, from NASA EARTHDATA – Missing heat ‘Scientists search the deep oceans to balance Earth’s energy budget’ by Laura Naranjo October 13, 2015 But after rapid warming in the 1980s and 1990s, the rate seemed to slow. Continued high continental temperatures were offset by curiously cool ocean surfaces. Yet most scientific evidence, and the inexorable increases in heat trapping greenhouse gases, indicated global temperatures should be climbing at a greater rate. This missing heat had to go somewhere—if not in the surface layers, where? https://earthdata.nasa.gov/user-resources/sensing-our-planet/missing-heat # # # The heat is in the ocean but it was never “missing” heat and it didn’t get there via “heat trapping greenhouse gases”. It got there via solar input and whatever superheat comes up from the sea floor – all… Read more »

Richard C (NZ)
Guest
Richard C (NZ)

Should be, at end of GISS L-OTI Southern Hemisphere:

2013 0.55 << ENSO-neutral
2014 0.58
2018 0.55 < 99% chance” of a new record is toast. Any 2016 record would be meaningless by 2018 anyway because the data will be back flat after La Nina.

Richard C (NZ)
Guest
Richard C (NZ)

Doing something wrong. I’ll try again.

Should be, at end of GISS L-OTI Southern Hemisphere:

Southern Hemisphere
2013 0.55 << ENSO-neutral
2014 0.58
2018 0.55 ???? ENSO-Neutral

The Global YTD anomaly only has to fall another 0.189 and Schmidt's chance of a new record is toast.

Any 2016 record would be meaningless by 2018 anyway because the data will be back flat after La Nina.

Richard C (NZ)
Guest
Richard C (NZ)

>” It [ocean heat] got there via solar input and whatever superheat comes up from the sea floor – all 1,600,000 ZetaJoules of it.”

‘Jamaica Literally Sits on One of The World’s Largest Thermal Energy Source’

NEWS EDITOR | May 15, 2016

Scientists found the deepest known hydrothermal vents, some 5 kilometres down beneath the waves of the Caribbean in the Cayman Trough.

“In a nutshell, the Mid-Cayman Rise displays perhaps the broadest range of mid-ocean ridge geologic processes all active in the same place,” said German. “It makes a perfect natural laboratory in which to study all kinds of aspects of hydrothermal flow.- Oceanus Magazine

Less than one hundred and ninety (190) miles and within its territorial waters defined as its Exclusive Economic Zone, west of Negril Point between Jamaica and Cayman Island lies the largest spread of super-heated hot water vents in the world, capable of producing well over fifty two (52 GW) Gigawatts or some 52,000 Mega Watt of energy.

The technology to develop and harness this vast source of clean renewable energy is available in the form of repurposing deep ocean oil rig platform.

http://ace876daily.com/2016/05/15/jamaica-literally-sits-on-one-of-the-worlds-largest-thermal-energy-source/

Andy
Guest
Richard C (NZ)
Guest
Richard C (NZ)

Andy, the Editorial ends with this:

“Removing less-than-robust details from those residents’ LIMs is the right thing to do. But once maps based on more rigorous research are produced, they should certainly be put on to land reports. Potential purchasers need clear, unequivocal guidance of all the risks that come with buying any property. Transparency is critical, as is an understanding that the risk, once established, does not disappear regardless of whether it appears in paperwork.”

Except the review recommends “more than one IPCC scenario” and a further regular reviews. So what will be the “rigourous” scenario? There cannot be just one i.e. “unequivocal” is impossible.

And still no mention anywhere of a default “no change in rate” scenario. That is the situation as it stands at present but no-one seems to want to know about it.

Andy
Guest
Andy

I’m happy with the results to date.

These include possible relaxation of the very restrictive building codes (via Independent Hearings Panel), the dropping of the original coastal hazards zones that was done last year (but not the “high flood management zone” which includes the coastal areas I am in) and this possible dropping of LIM tagging.

This should give us some room to breathe.

Andy
Guest
Andy

Simon Arnold from Kapiti deserves a special mention. He has been a wonderful ally

Richard C (NZ)
Guest
Richard C (NZ)

Should be

“2016 114 133 129 109 93 79 [83] average YTD 1.059 and difference to 2015: 0.189”

Schmidt’s prediction for 2016 was not just for a “new record” but for 2016 to be 0.2 C higher than 2015 (plus or minus).

YTD to July 2016 is 0.189 C higher than 2015 with 5 more months to come in. So Schmidt is on track but ONLY if there’s no La Nina cooling in the next 5 months.

Somewhat hollow boast if he cracks it given the El Nino heat from earlier in the year that he claimed for AGW/MMCC is already GONE – dissipated to space.

Andy
Guest
Andy

Sorry about the misthread. I guess this needs a post of its own, which no doubt I need to write 🙂

Andy
Guest
Andy

I’ll try to find some time..

Richard C (NZ)
Guest
Richard C (NZ)

Andy,

>”I went to a meeting last night where an MfE guy (Dan) listened to the local community and asked for our feedback on the process, so we shouldn’t assume that they are not interested in engaging the public”

The CCC process seems to be setting what in legal terms would be described as a “case precedent” i.e. the rest of the coastal councils, and MfE, will follow suit.

Given the CCC process will not be resolved for some time yet this must leave many authorities, and the MfE, in a bit of a quandary, or limbo perhaps. I don’t see how any authority can make hard-and-fast pronouncements on sea level rise anymore. That includes the MfE.

Andy
Guest
Andy

I do sense a little bit of history being made, so to speak

MfE seem quite cagey about making hard and fast pronouncements on specific numbers with respect to sea level projections

Richard C (NZ)
Guest
Richard C (NZ)

>”Somewhat hollow boast if he [Schmidt] cracks it given the El Nino heat from earlier in the year that he claimed for AGW/MMCC is already GONE – dissipated to space.”

The Annual Mean is meaningless – only the latest Monthly Mean matters:

GISS: Monthly Mean Global Surface Temperature [mouse-over for anomaly]
http://data.giss.nasa.gov/gistemp/graphs/graph_data/Monthly_Mean_Global_Surface_Temperature/graph.html

This Monthly Mean is the graph that tells the real story – not Schmidt’s Annual Mean or a YTD average of months. The annual mean retains the early year high El Nino temperature, the monthly mean doesn’t.

So an annual mean “record” does not actually exist except on paper. The only data that actually matters is the latest monthly data. Currently the July anomaly is unremarkable.

The above graph has mouse-over functionality because it is HTML. I really like this feature.

The graph is available at:

GISS Surface Temperature Analysis – Analysis Graphs and Plots
http://data.giss.nasa.gov/gistemp/graphs/#

>> Global Monthly Mean Surface Temperature Change
>> Figure also available as a PNG, PDF, HTML, plain text, CSV, or Generate PNG of the visualizations current state.

Select “HTML”.

Richard C (NZ)
Guest
Richard C (NZ)

Simon, Whoever.

I’ve moved GISS Monthly Mean anomaly discussion to the next ‘Govt Ignores Science in Rush to Ratify Paris Climate Accord’ thread:

https://www.climateconversation.org.nz/2016/08/govt-ignores-science-in-rush-to-ratify-paris-climate-accord/comment-page-1/#comment-1508406

Seems more appropriate there.

Simon
Guest
Simon

0.84°C above the 1951-1980 mean is hardly unremarkable. It is surprising as the El Nino has well and truly passed. How can you explain the anomaly if “the only data that actually matters is the latest monthly data. “. Undersea volcanos? (see cartoon above)
For a bonus point, what is the underlying trend of the charted data?

Richard C (NZ)
Guest
Richard C (NZ)

Simon >”0.84°C above the 1951-1980 mean is hardly unremarkable. It is surprising as the El Nino has well and truly passed.” Rubbish. For July, the oceanic El Nino has only passed, in terms of SSTs, in regions 3 and 3.4. Not so much in 1+2 and 4 which were still positive: ENSO region SSTs http://www.cpc.ncep.noaa.gov/products/analysis_monitoring/enso_update/ssta_c.gif So the oceanic El Nino had not passed by July and the air temperature was still influenced by El Nino SSTs. The oceanic El Nino heat is still dissipating. It would not surprise me if there’s another blip up in August but once all the El Nino heat has dissipated from the atmosphere there’s only one way for the monthly mean – down to ENSO-neutral. The July anomaly is unremarkable, to see why go to the next thread here: [Warning: Extreme caution – very close look at recent monthly surface data] https://www.climateconversation.org.nz/2016/08/govt-ignores-science-in-rush-to-ratify-paris-climate-accord/comment-page-1/#comment-1508416 >”How can you explain the anomaly if “the only data that actually matters is the latest monthly data. “. Huh? The latest monthly data IS the latest monthly anomaly you goose. An anomaly is in respect to the climatological baseline. The latest data is a monthly… Read more »

Richard C (NZ)
Guest
Richard C (NZ)

>”What is the underlying trend? A meaningless assumption as I’ve already commented”

This being in the next thread here:

https://www.climateconversation.org.nz/2016/08/govt-ignores-science-in-rush-to-ratify-paris-climate-accord/comment-page-1/#comment-1508406

Dennis N Horne
Guest
Dennis N Horne

Richard C (NZ)

So, what goes on in your mind does not involve observations, thoughts and ideas. The climate enters directly as your view of reality.

Really? How?

Everything we know about the universe is an interpretation made by our brains acting on nerve impulses from the sensory organs.

When a great many scientists around the world study a phenomenon over a long period, and state that their interpretations are broadly the same, we have a very important consensus view.

Of course it is possible for a genius to show us a better interpretation.

By publishing his view.

And changing the consensus.

Andy
Guest
Andy

What is the consensus?

Can someone advise me what all these thousands of scientists agree on?

Richard C (NZ)
Guest
Richard C (NZ)

Dennis >”The climate enters directly as your view of reality. Really? How?” Well duh. The actual climate this century, in terms of temperature, is well below “consensus” expectations. The IPCC admits this Dennis (how many times do I have to say this?). >”When a great many scientists around the world study a phenomenon over a long period, and state that their interpretations are broadly the same, we have a very important consensus view.” Exactly. VERY important. Problem is: the “consensus view” has a problem – “Missing Heat”. Google search – missing heat 21st century https://www.google.co.nz/webhp?complete=0&hl=en&gws_rd=cr&ei=tyO9V5X4O4a60ATnsKH4Cw#complete=0&hl=en&q=missing+heat+21st+century+&btnK=Google+Search The heat is missing from the atmosphere (where the “consensus” thinks it SHOULD be), so the search for the missing heat has inevitably gone to the ocean (see articles upthread on this). But the IPCC has made ocean warming anthropogenic-attribution-by-speculation. They have no science whatsoever to back up their attribution claim. No citations. No observations. No evidence. After 25 years and 5 assessment reports, they still only “expect” “air-sea fluxes” to be the anthro ocean warming mechanism. They could not find said fluxes in AR5 WG1 Chapter 10. The notion is a physical impossibility anyway, even just looking… Read more »

Richard C (NZ)
Guest
Richard C (NZ)

>”The actual climate this century, in terms of temperature, is well below “consensus” expectations. The IPCC admits this Dennis (how many times do I have to say this?).” IPCC AR5 WG1 Technical Summary Box TS.3 | Climate Models and the Hiatus in Global Mean Surface Warming of the Past 15 Years The observed GMST has shown a much smaller increasing linear trend over the past 15 years than over the past 30 to 60 years (Box TS.3, Figure 1a, c). Depending on the observational data set, the GMST trend over 1998–2012 is estimated to be around one third to one half of the trend over 1951–2012. For example, in HadCRUT4 the trend is 0.04°C per decade over 1998–2012, compared to 0.11°C per decade over 1951–2012. The reduction in observed GMST trend is most marked in NH winter. Even with this ‘hiatus’ in GMST trend, the decade of the 2000s has been the warmest in the instrumental record of GMST. Nevertheless, the occurrence of the hiatus in GMST trend during the past 15 years raises the two related questions of what has caused it and whether climate models are able to reproduce it. {2.4.3,… Read more »

Richard C (NZ)
Guest
Richard C (NZ)

>This is a monumental problem for the “consensus” Dennis. All the theoretical anthropogenic forcing at TOA (the “consensus”) says the surface SHOULD be warming more than it is. It isn’t, so the reasoning then is – “Well um, hmm. Where did the theoretical heat go? I know, it must have gone into the ocean” Their total “effective” theoretical radiative forcing at TOA (ERF), including GHGs solar aerosols LULUC, was 2.33 W.m-2 in AR5. Except the actual earth’s energy balance at TOA was only 0.6 W.m-2 according to AR5 Chapter 6 citation Stephens et al (2012), see Figure 1: IPCC AR5 WG1 Chapter 2: Earth’s Energy Budget, Stephens et al (2012) Figure 1 http://www.nature.com/ngeo/journal/v5/n10/images/ngeo1580-f1.jpg Their theory-obs discrepancy accumulates to an astronomical number over a few decades when spread over every square metre of the TOA surface area. You can see this in the Technical Summary TFE.4 Figure 1: TS TFE.4-1 The accumulated theoretical GHG forcing is 1200 ZetaJoules just from 1970 to 2011. Their description of TFE.4-1 is this: TFE.4, Figure 1 | The Earth’s energy budget from 1970 through 2011. (a) The cumulative energy inflow into the Earth system from changes in well-mixed… Read more »

Richard C (NZ)
Guest
Richard C (NZ)

IPCC AR5 WG1 Technical Summary TFE.4 Figure 1:

“an increase in outgoing radiation inferred from changes in the global mean surface temperature”

There is an insurmountable problem for the “consensus” here.

The actual earth’s energy imbalance at TOA was stable and fluctuating about 0.6 W.m-2 2000 to 2010 according to AR5 WG1 Chapter 2 citation Loeb et al (2012), see Figure 3:

IPCC AR5 WG1 Chapter 2: Earth’s Energy Budget, Loeb et al (2012) Figure 3
Net TOA Flux
http://www.nature.com/ngeo/journal/v5/n2/images/ngeo1375-f3.jpg

If OLR was actually increasing, as the IPCC assert, then if the TOA imbalance stays unchanged as it was 2000 – 2010 then this implies that TSI must have been DECREASING at the same rate as OLR was INCREASING when “inferred” from GMST 2000-2010.

Well, here’s PMOD TSI:

PMOD TSI
http://www.woodfortrees.org/plot/pmod/from:2000/to:2010/every:12

And GISS L-OTI GMST,

GISS L-OTI
http://www.woodfortrees.org/plot/gistemp/from:2000/to:2010/every:12

And Net TOA Flux again,

Net TOA Flux
http://www.nature.com/ngeo/journal/v5/n2/images/ngeo1375-f3.jpg

Obviously there is no relationship whatsoever, direct, inverse, anything, between Net TOA Flux, TSI, and GMST.

Again (again), this “consensus” is scientific fraud.

Richard C (NZ)
Guest
Richard C (NZ)

RT

>”So the temperature has gone up half a degree in 170 years, more than half the warming might have been caused by us”

I did a double take at this thinking – that can’t be right. But I did a decadal graph below with 120 sample smoothing (10 yrs x 12 months = 120) that shows that a 0.5 rise either from 1890, or 1910, or 1930, or 1950 to 2001 was all there was, give or take. But it was only just over half that from 1880.

In the 2007 report as quoted it was only “most of the warming observed over the last 50 years is attributable to human activities” i.e. 1951 – 2001 (call it 1950-2000). So maybe 0.25+ attributable.

Except 1950 was a low point decadally. Here’s the graph:

HadCRUT4 to 2001, 120 month smoothing
http://www.woodfortrees.org/plot/hadcrut4gl/to:2001/every:120

The 0.5 rise from 1950 to 2001 looks a bit silly. To 2000 it was only 0.4 rise from 1940 and only 0.25 rise from 1880 (plus a bit). So their 0.25+ attribution 1951 – 2001 is about the same as the entire decadal rise 1880 – 2001.

Dennis N Horne
Guest
Dennis N Horne

Scientific consensus is a concept. It implies widespread and profound agreement amongst the scientific community about a phenomenon. I would say, for example, most informed scientists might look at this and wonder just how much evidence is needed to persuade a ‘sceptic’ there is man-made global warming and climate change. And realise of course, that more evidence is only more evidence of fraud. In their minds. https://www.ncdc.noaa.gov/sotc/global/201606 “Averaged as a whole, the global temperature across land surfaces for June 2016 was 1.24°C (2.23°F) above the 20th century average—tying with 2015 as the highest June temperature in the 1880–2016 record. June 2016 marks the 34th consecutive June with temperatures at least nominally above average. The last time global land surface temperatures were below average in June was in 1982 (-0.05°C / -0.09°F).” “Australia’s mean temperature during June 2016 was 1.30°C (2.34°F) above the 1961–1990 average, the sixth highest June temperature since national temperature records began in 1910. Minimum temperatures were much warmer than average, while maximum temperatures were near average. The nationally-averaged minimum temperature was 2.22°C (4.00°F) above average—the fourth highest June minimum temperature on record. “The June 2016 mean temperature across the United… Read more »

Dennis N Horne
Guest
Dennis N Horne

http://www.climatecentral.org/news/world-flirts-with-1.5C-threshold-20260
Flirting with the 1.5°C Threshold

“1.5°C Threshold Closer Than We Think?

“The dramatic global hot streak that kicked off 2016 doesn’t mean the world has already failed to meet the goals in the Paris agreement. Three months do not make a year, and it is unlikely that 2016 will exceed the 1881-1910 climate-normal by 1.5°C. This year is also in the wake of a strong El Niño, when higher-than-average temperatures would be expected.

And of course, exceeding the 1.5°C threshold for even an entire year would not mean that global temperatures had in fact risen to that point, never (at least within our lifetime) to drop back below it as it’s too short of a timeframe to make that determination.

“But the hot start for 2016 is a notable symbolic milestone. The day the world first crossed the 400 parts per million (ppm) threshold for atmospheric carbon dioxide heralded a future of ever increasing carbon dioxide. So too, do the first three months of 2016 send a clear signal of where our world is headed and how fast we are headed there if drastic actions to reduce carbon emissions are not taken immediately.”

Richard C (NZ)
Guest
Richard C (NZ)

Dennis >”……..[big screed of GMST anomalies we already knew]…….” The “consensus” thinks, by their TOA radiative forcing theory, that the GMST anomalies (including NZ) you’ve quoted SHOULD be warmer than they were Dennis. Their “consensus” models (97% of them) say the same. Go to NIWA’s “Prediction” page and plot the “consensus” prediction for 21st Century NZ and you will find their prediction is TOO WARM relative to the observations you have quoted. Same everywhere else i.e. globally. The “consensus” has a massive energy budget closure problem. From upthread: “The accumulated theoretical GHG forcing is 1200 ZetaJoules just from 1970 to 2011” [IPCC TS TFE.4, Figure 1] As I’ve laid out upthread, the 2 steps the “consensus” take to close their massive budget deficit are bogus i.e. “scientific fraud”. Again, 1) They invoke “storage” in the ocean. They include “land, atmosphere and ice” but obviously the major component is ocean heat content (OHC). Except it is physically impossible to attribute ocean “storage” rise to GHG forcing at TOA. 2) Elsewhere in the TS they say TOA measurements are “highly precise”. But instead of using “highly precise” satellite measurements of outgoing longwave radiation (OLR) they… Read more »

Richard C (NZ)
Guest
Richard C (NZ)

>”“But the hot start for 2016 is a notable symbolic milestone. The day the world first crossed the 400 parts per million (ppm) threshold for atmospheric carbon dioxide heralded a future of ever increasing carbon dioxide.”

Big problem with that is of course that anthro FF emissions growth has been dead flat for the last 3 years i.e. zero growth.

But atmospheric CO2 levels saw record growth. Obviously a disconnect between FF emissions and atmospheric CO2. The record growth in atmospheric CO2 was due to natural factors i.e. an El Nino – not FF emissions.

Richard C (NZ)
Guest
Richard C (NZ)

Dennis >”Go to NIWA’s “Prediction” page and plot the “consensus” prediction for 21st Century NZ and you will find their prediction is TOO WARM relative to the observations you have quoted.” ‘Climate change scenarios for New Zealand – Downscaling to New Zealand’ Prepared by David Wratt & Brett Mullan To identify likely future climate changes across New Zealand, projected changes from global climate models are statistically downscaled. This is a method for building in local spatial detail from information at the much coarser-scale available from GCMs. Historical observations are used to develop regression equations that relate local climate fluctuations to changes at the larger-scale. These historical observations are then replaced by the model changes in the regression equations to produce the fine-scale projections. Downscaled changes were prepared on a 0.05° grid (approximately 5km by 4km) covering New Zealand. The New Zealand downscaled projections follow the IPCC Fourth Assessment approach. That is, changes are relative to 1980-1999, which we abbreviate as “1990” for convenience. Changes are calculated for the two future periods 2030-2049 (“2040” for short) and 2080-2099 (“2090”). Thus, the New Zealand projections are 50 and 100 year changes, between the baseline climate… Read more »

Richard C (NZ)
Guest
Richard C (NZ)

Now the “consensus” is claiming 1800s warming for AGW, but the “consensus” disagrees: ‘Human-made climate change started twice as long ago as we thought’ By Cassie Werber http://qz.com/765172/human-made-climate-change-started-twice-as-long-ago-as-we-thought/ To reach back into the 19th century, the researchers used a combination of climate modeling (where computers use collected data to construct a simulation of the climate as it was in the past) with a study of physical evidence from parts of the natural world that store information about climate: corals, tree rings, and ice cores. Their conclusion: the “time of emergence,” when significant signs of global temperature change start to appear, was in the 1830s, fully a century before we detected the increase in Arctic temperatures. “It was an extraordinary finding,” said Nerilie Abram, associate professor at the Australian National University and the study’s lead author, in a press release. “It was one of those moments where science really surprised us. But the results were clear. The climate warming we are witnessing today started about 180 years ago.” Humans began burning coal to power steam engines back in the 1780s, and ramped up to intense industrialization by the mid-19th century. Evidently, this left its… Read more »

Richard C (NZ)
Guest
Richard C (NZ)

>”But why didn’t they go back to the 17th – 18th Century Little Ice Age?”

Because…….

Global temperatures began to increase 260 years before CO2 levels began to increase
comment image

From David Middleton’s Debunk House.

Dennis N Horne
Guest
Dennis N Horne

Richard C (NZ). Referring to my earlier two comments. Just read the words. Simple words. It’s clear there is global warming. A lot. That is explained by increasing CO2 and other GHGs. Nothing else. You can try to explain that it can’t be happening and you can complain some predictions have been wrong but nothing you say can make any difference to the simple fact that … tens of thousands of scientists working in the field and all the scientific institutions and societies on the planet are agreed, that, the evidence is clear and the science is incontrovertible. The basics are relatively simple to grasp, the complexity is more due to the amount of information, the scale, the time and the multiple interactions than any inherently difficult concepts, and it is simply beyond belief there is fraud on a massive scale or some giant conspiracy amongst scientists to enable politicians to tax or control the world … or whatever you claim or fear. But simple as it may be, it seems to be entirely beyond your grasp. For instance, this comment: Richard C (NZ) at 6:55 am said: >”“But the hot start for… Read more »

Richard C (NZ)
Guest
Richard C (NZ)

Dennis >”It’s clear there is global warming. A lot.” Yes, we know Dennis (yawn). It started warming at 1600, 260 years before the start of CO2 rise (see graph): Global temperatures began to increase 260 years before CO2 levels began to increase >”That is explained by increasing CO2 and other GHGs. Nothing else.” WRONG. CO2 does NOT explain temperature rise 260 years BEFORE the CO2 rise at 1860. Solar change does. And now in the 20th to 21st Century theoretical CO2 forcing overshoots earth’s energy by 1200 ZetaJoules just from 1970 to 2011, let alone 1950 to 2016. In other words, CO2 forcing theory is superfluous. >”So? Where’s the ‘disconnect’?” Go back upthread and read Dennis. >”Forget your elaborate workings.” Heh, out of your depth Dennis? Hardly “elaborate”, these are simple deductions from the IPCC Technical Summary and available data. The issue is NOT in the troposphere anymore Dennis, the “consensus” case has moved to the ocean by necessity. The “consensus” has failed at TOA, failed in the troposphere, so now they have moved to the ocean: “93% of the heat from human kind’s global warming………….. has gone into the sea” – Renwick… Read more »

Richard C (NZ)
Guest
Richard C (NZ)

Dennis

>”So? Where’s the ‘disconnect’?”

Here,

First 2 graphs are the respective data, second 2 are the respective growth rates.

Global energy-related CO2 emissions [“decoupling”]
http://i.amz.mshcdn.com/29DWYXTrZh_6lsyFrYt7KwgL4io=/fit-in/1200×9600/https%3A%2F%2Fblueprint-api-production.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fuploads%2Fcard%2Fimage%2F27448%2Fco2emissionsdecoupling.png

Recent Global Monthly Mean CO2
http://www.esrl.noaa.gov/gmd/webdata/ccgg/trends/co2_trend_gl.png

Fossil Fuels Emissions Growth Rates
comment image?w=639&h=479

Annual Mean Growth Rate for Mauna Loa, Hawaii
http://www.esrl.noaa.gov/gmd/ccgg/trends/gr.html

BTW, I grabbed these graphs from a recent comment of mine at JoNova:

#12.1.2.1.1 Richard C (NZ) August 16, 2016 at 1:40 pm
http://joannenova.com.au/2016/08/malcolm-roberts-on-q-a-right-now/#comment-1827086

In other words, it’s not just here at CCG that you have to play whack-a-mole Dennis. You will have to chase me around a few other blogs too. If you can’t cope with “elaborate” workings don’t bother chasing me to 1000+ comment threads at Climate Etc for example.

Richard C (NZ)
Guest
Richard C (NZ)

Dennis

>”Plot that Figure 2 curve [“consensus” scenario] against NZ temperature from 1990 e.g. NIWA 7SS or BEST NZ, and the curve overshoots observations this century. 1990 to 2040 can be approximated by a linear rise.”

1.80 C/century – NIWA “consensus” scenario for NZ 1990 – 2040
0.72 C/century – BEST 37SS monthly means for NZ 1970 – 2013

Observations (BEST Monthly) vs “Consensus” (NIWA Scenario)
Year, Month, Obs Anomaly, Obs Absolute, “Consensus” Absolute
2012 1 -0.302 10.338 11.22332
2012 2 -0.353 10.287 11.22482
2012 3 -0.911 9.729 11.22632
2012 4 0.38 11.02 11.22782
2012 5 -0.1 10.54 11.22932
2012 6 -0.252 10.388 11.23082
2012 7 0.56 11.2 11.23232
2012 8 0.822 11.462 11.23382
2012 9 0.457 11.097 11.23532
2012 10 -0.337 10.303 11.23682
2012 11 -0.879 9.761 11.23832
2012 12 1.128 11.768 11.23982
2013 1 0.353 10.993 11.24132
2013 2 0.108 10.748 11.24282
2013 3 0.74 11.38 11.24432
2013 4 0.959 11.599 11.24582
2013 5 0.516 11.156 11.24732
2013 6 0.373 11.013 11.24882
2013 7 1.281 11.921 11.25032
2013 8 1.558 12.198 11.25182

Looks good for the “consensus” at 2013.8 but when both series are graphed from the 1990 baseline it is readily apparent that the 0.72 C/century observations trend is never going to track the 1.80 C/century “consensus” scenario trend out to 2040.

Richard C (NZ)
Guest
Richard C (NZ)

>”Global energy-related CO2 emissions [“decoupling”]”

If the server at that link is unavailable the same graph of International Energy Agency (IEA) data can be viewed here at source:

‘Decoupling of global emissions and economic growth confirmed’
https://www.iea.org/newsroomandevents/pressreleases/2016/march/decoupling-of-global-emissions-and-economic-growth-confirmed.html

Not only have FF emissions “decoupled” from economic growth, FF emissions growth (flat) has “decoupled” from atmospheric carbon dioxide growth (record high).

“Decoupled” in 2009 too. FF emissions growth went negative after the GFC but atmospheric growth continued positive as usual.

Richard C (NZ)
Guest
Richard C (NZ)

>”1.80 C/century – NIWA “consensus” scenario for NZ 1990 – 2040″
>”0.72 C/century – BEST 37SS monthly means for NZ 1970 – 2013″

Similar situation for sea level rise (SLR) around NZ.

Also,

-0.096C/decade – BEST-NZ 37SS trend in Monthly data 1.77 decades 1997 to Aug 2013 (end of file)

BEST-NZ data
http://berkeleyearth.lbl.gov/auto/Regional/TAVG/Text/new-zealand-TAVG-Trend.txt

Check out “Five-year Anomaly”

1986 6 0.374
1986 7 0.422
2000 1 0.658
2011 3 0.391

No NZ warming July 1986 – March 2011 (24.67 yrs) by 5-yr anomaly.

Richard C (NZ)
Guest
Richard C (NZ)

>Check out “Five-year Anomaly” Didn’t go back far enough 1972 10 0.384 1972 11 0.412 1972 12 0.391 2000 1 0.658 2011 3 0.391 No NZ warming November 1972 to March 2011 (38 yrs 5 months) by 5-yr anomaly. The “consensus” scenario baseline is 1980-1999 centred on 1990 but those 2 decades were relatively cooler than back in the early 1970s (by 5-yr anomaly): 1972 11 0.412 1990 1 0.272 1990 2 0.239 1990 3 0.213 1990 4 0.196 1990 5 0.196 1990 6 0.183 1990 7 0.167 1990 8 0.141 1990 9 0.134 1990 10 0.137 1990 11 0.150 1990 12 0.156 2011 3 0.391 So the “consensus” is projecting from a cool period in the late 20th Century relative to the early 1970s, about 0.23 C cooler mid 1990s. This gives the “consensus” an unfair, and misleading, advantage

Richard C (NZ)
Guest
Richard C (NZ)

Dennis >”it is simply beyond belief there is fraud on a massive scale” Beyond belief? Get real Dennis. Scientific fraud abounds in many sectors, vaccine research for example. The end justifies the means for many when cash and careers are in the mix. And it’s not “massive” in climate science Dennis. There is actually relatively few authors driving IPCC assessment report chapters and a handful of overall editors who return for each new report. Scientific fraud can arise simply by scientists needing to produce a particular outcome in a controlled groupthink “consensus” environment, especially in commercially driven science. Not commercial but case in point #1 from climate science from upthread: Closure of the “consensus” energy budget where theoretical TOA forcing has blown out to astronomical proportions was a must to keep the MMCC theory alive. Case #2 Anthropogenic ocean warming attribution to keep the theory alive. Climate scientists are NOT qualified applied heat specialists. Much of their energy work is of the make-it-up-as-you-go-along variety without recourse to other, long established, disciplines. Consequently their closure process is blatantly flawed and physically erroneous. The difficulty though is drawing the line between honest error and scientific… Read more »

Richard C (NZ)
Guest
Richard C (NZ)

Dennis

>”it is simply beyond belief there is fraud on a massive scale”

This has to be one of the more naive statements I’ve come across Dennis.

‘Scientific fraud is rife: it’s time to stand up for good science’
https://www.theguardian.com/science/blog/2012/nov/02/scientific-fraud-good-science

Richard C (NZ)
Guest
Richard C (NZ)

>”Similar situation for sea level rise (SLR) around NZ.” [“Consensus” scenario vs Actual obs]

>”By today’s standards, omission of data that inexplicably conflicts with other data or with a scientist’s proposed interpretation is considered scientific fraud”

REPORT
Wellington City Council
Sea Level Rise Options Analysis
Tonkin & Taylor Ltd

2.2 Range of scenarios
WCC recognises that sea level rise represents a long-term and dynamic risk, requiring new approaches to prepare and respond. WCC is following MfE guidance by focussing on sea level rise scenarios between 0.6 m to 1.1 m, understanding that a rise of around 1.0 m should be planned for over the coming 100 years.

For this study no deduction in actual sea level rise from the 1980s to the present has been made.

http://wellington.govt.nz/~/media/services/environment-and-waste/environment/files/61579-wcc-sea-level-rise-options.pdf

# # #

At least T&T disclosed their omission.

Andy
Guest
Andy

I just got back from a rather longer than expected deputation to the council over sea level rise and LIM memoranda.

Watch TV3 News, RNZ and The Press for media info

Andy
Guest
Andy

Well the Press don’t mess around, hot off the press…

Residents threaten legal action unless council wipes erosion info
http://www.stuff.co.nz/the-press/news/83529804/residents-threaten-legal-action-unless-council-wipes-erosion-info

Richard C (NZ)
Guest
Richard C (NZ)

Dennis >”it is simply beyond belief there is fraud on a massive scale” Here’s how scientific fraud works in the IPCC Dennis. The Chapter authors are “gatekeepers” in the chapter review process. For example: anthropogenic ocean warming attribution in Chapter 10 Detection and Attribution. This was a comment on ocean warming in Chapter 10 by John McLean and the gatekeepers response: Expert and Government Review Comments on the IPCC WGI AR5 Second Order Draft – Chapter 10 10-234 This claim is unsustainable [see IPCC claim reference at link]. Downwelling radiation from CO2 penetrates only a few microns at the ocean surface and rapidly disappears in evaporation and convection. Not only is there no method by which anthropogenic greenhouse gas emissions can cause dep ocean warming, but also chapter 3 failed to describe any physical process by which heat could sink. Remove the statement. [John McLean, Australia] Response: Rejected. The assessment of chapter 3 shows robust evidence for ocean warming and sea level rise from observations and section 10.4 shows robust evidence for this warming being anthropogenic. https://www.ipcc.ch/pdf/assessment-report/ar5/wg1/drafts/Ch10_WG1AR5SOD_RevCommResponses_Final.pdf There is no “robust evidence for [anthropogenic] ocean warming” in Chapter 3 or section 10.4. In… Read more »

Richard C (NZ)
Guest
Richard C (NZ)

Andy. CCC are not going to concede without a fight apparently, unless the legal threat works that is.

Andy
Guest
Andy

“CCC are not going to concede without a fight apparently”

is certainly the vibe I got today despite strong support from at least 3 councillors

Andy
Guest
Andy

By the way, we were supposed to be on at 9.30 am but got rescheduled and eventually came on after 11, then the Mayor took a longer than usual tea break, then had to leave for a “prior engagement”

Richard C (NZ)
Guest
Richard C (NZ)

Dennis

>”it is simply beyond belief there is [scientific] fraud on a massive scale”

Suggest you read the Climategate emails, specifically in respect to “Mike’s Nature trick”, “hide the decline”, and “even if we have to redefine what the peer-review literature is!”.

Andy
Guest
Andy

Yeah who cares about a few emails though? The USA might elect the most criminal and corrupt politician in the history of the country to the position of President, as detailed in the leaked emails, the various books and movies etc.

Dennis N Horne
Guest
Dennis N Horne

Richard C (NZ)

Climategate was nothing more than a beat-up by the lying oil lobby. It’s all been explained perfectly satisfactorily and all the scientists fully exonerated after many many inquiries.

I put your claims of omnipresent fraud in the same basket as the moon landing hoax and the WTC demolition explanation.

You’ve convinced yourself CO2 is not causing warming and you can’t persuade any scientist working in the field or anyone who has much understanding of the science.

Andy
Guest
Andy

“Climategate was nothing more than a beat-up by the lying oil lobby.”

just like all those allegations against the Clintons are a beat up by right wing conspiracy nutjobs. Yeah really

Andy
Guest
Andy

Dennis, just give me one name of someone involved with Climategate that was in the “lying oil lobby”. Anyone will do

Climategate was predominantly about Mann’s Hockey Stick. A lot of the people involved in the FOIA requests that led to climategate accept the basic premise that CO2 causes warming

What was more concerning than climategate was the coverups and the total lack of any attempt to rectify things, that has led to so much distrust in science as a result

Post Navigation