Disproving AGW

This thread is for discussion of arguments and evidence against the existence of dangerous man-made global warming.


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Richard C (NZ)
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Richard C (NZ)

Climate Experts Spencer and Lindzen Lash Out as Pet Theory is Trashed Two irate top climatologists launch into a flurry of name-calling and innuendo as their beloved greenhouse gas theory collapses threatening to take their careers with it. Dr. Roy Spencer this week followed the lead of Dr. Richard Lindzen in spitting insults after fellow skeptic scientists debunked the greenhouse gas effect (GHE). Lindzen confined his insults to private emails. But Spencer openly blogged his personal attack after reading how cutting-edge scientific research by specialists in astrophysicists, space engineering and mathematics had exposed Spencer’s weak grasp of physics; something particularly identified by NASA’s former Apollo Mission engineer, Dr. Pierre R. Latour. Highly credentialed scientists, among them Latour, Professor Nasif Nahle, Dr. Matthias Kleespiesand other leading experts in their respective fields have been remorselessly debunking the GHE in a series of articles and peer-reviewed papers. The GHE is the cornerstone of the man-made global warming hysteria. Discussions Terminated After Tempers Fray With unseemly venom Spencer and Lindzen have scorned further dialog from several fellow man-made global warming skeptics for refusing to toe the line over the increasingly discredited greenhouse gas theory (GHE). Like many… Read more »

Richard C (NZ)
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Richard C (NZ)

Yes, Virginia, the “Vacuum” of Space Does have a “Temperature”

Written by Dr. Roy W. Spencer | February 23 2012

Usually, I refrain from addressing silly scientific claims. But since some people seem determined to go to any extent to ‘disprove’ greenhouse gas theory, in this instance I am going against my better judgment to answer a particularly crazy article entitled, “Roy Spencer’s Fatal Error: Believing the Vacuum of Space Has a Temperature“.

>>>>>>>>

http://climatechangedispatch.com/home/9984-yes-virginia-the-vacuum-of-space-does-have-a-temperature

Andy
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Andy

What is “space”? If they mean a vacuum with no energy, then this doesn’t exist. “Space” as we know it has cosmic rays, photons, neutrinos and all sorts of other stuff flying backwards and forwards.

Richard Treadgold
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Richard C, you say: “I had thought that the dissipation process included space but if space has no temperature (neutral), the dissipation must be completed within the atmosphere.”

Let me hasten to say there’s little in this discussion I understand and I haven’t spent long reading it. But this statement stood out. It is surely incorrect. The earth, satellites, our moon, the planets and other bodies are warmed by heat from the sun. The heat energy, clearly, is radiated through space or it would not arrive. I must believe that the sun’s energy is radiated in every direction, not just towards bodies that are warmed. This means the sun is cooling directly to space, which gives us a direct analogue of the situation you mention with the Earth. Thus the (heat) radiation is independent of the medium through which it radiates or its temperature. The earth itself (say a large surface rock) can indeed radiate heat energy into space beyond the atmosphere. I haven’t considered whether the radiative frequency is important here.

Do you agree?

Richard C (NZ)
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Richard C (NZ)

O’Sullivan says about half way down:-

“Spencer and Lindzen wrongly assumed that the so-called cosmic ‘microwave’ – the background radiation (or CMBR, generated by the ‘Big Bang’) is what the rest of vacuum space registers as temperature (the CMBR is quoted at around 2.7K).

But even that pro-green online encyclopedia, Wikipedia knows there is no ‘real’ temp in space – they refer to the “color temperature’ of the decoupled photons” which they say “has continued to diminish ever since [the ‘Big Bang’]; now down to 2.72548 ± 0.00057 K,[3]” ”

I’m confused by this. They seem to be separating CMBR from vacuum space (how?) but as you say, there’s “other stuff” and I always thought that was what registered the 2.7 K. I think we might be wrong about that.

I looked up my ‘Applied Heat’ text but it didn’t cover space. Being “applied”, my thermodynamic intro skipped the big picture and went on to the practical applications. I just accepted what I found when I looked up “temperature of space” on the internet without too much thought.

Have to go for a run then sleep on this.

Richard C (NZ)
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Richard C (NZ)

May I be so bold as to modify a sentence RT? “The [energy], clearly, is radiated through space or it would not arrive” The RADIATIVE energy is only converted to HEAT energy when it encounters matter. I agree to a degree with what you say. What I was getting at is that the conduction, convection and collision processes that dissipate HEAT energy must be completed within the atmosphere in the “neutral space” paradigm.. If space is neutral those processes cannot cross over from atmosphere to space. Then the only way for energy to leave the atmosphere after the HEAT energy dissipation is complete within the atmosphere is by RADIATIVE energy dissipation from atmospheric matter. This is a reverse of the sequence in the third sentence down from top of this comment. It’s only matter that can have temperature (anything above 0 K) and matter that has a temperature (molecular excitation) radiates (I’m not sure about photons, neutrons etc having temperature though, the “other stuff” Andy referred to. I had thought that there was the odd particle of matter suspended in space but maybe not). Plenty of earth’s surface RADIATIVE energy rockets out to… Read more »

Richard C (NZ)
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Richard C (NZ)

Sorry, should have replied here, See down-thread.

Richard C (NZ)
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Richard C (NZ)

“HEAT energy dissipation is complete” might be better stated as:-

“HEAT energy [transfer] is [minimal]”

Energy dissipation then continues RADIATIVELY.

Whew!.

Richard C (NZ)
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Richard C (NZ)

Neutrinos (as Andy stated), not neutrons (as I stated) – garrgh!

Richard C (NZ)
Guest
Richard C (NZ)

Clues here:- Temperature The CMB gives a snapshot of the universe when, according to standard cosmology, the temperature dropped enough to allow electrons and protons to form hydrogen atoms, thus making the universe transparent to radiation. When it originated some 380,000 years after the Big Bang—this time is generally known as the “time of last scattering” or the period of recombination or decoupling—the temperature of the universe was about 3000 K. This corresponds to an energy of about 0.25 eV, which is much less than the 13.6 eV ionization energy of hydrogen.[53] Since decoupling, the temperature of the background radiation has dropped by a factor of roughly 1,100[54] due to the expansion of the universe. As the universe expands, the CMB photons are redshifted, making the radiation’s temperature inversely proportional to a parameter called the universe’s scale length. The temperature Tr of the CMB as a function of redshift, z, can be shown to be proportional to the temperature of the CMB as observed in the present day (2.725 K or 0.235 meV):[55] Tr = 2.725(1 + z) For details about the reasoning that the radiation is evidence for the Big Bang, see… Read more »

Andy
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Andy

Temperature is a measurement related to the kinetic energy of the matter that surrounds the measuring device.

If there is no matter surrounding the measuring device, then you have no temperature, though the measuring device itself invalidates the experiment as it introduces matter into the system. This is the classical Observer Paradox postulated by Schrodinger.

“Space” as we know it contains particulate matter in the form of various cosmic rays, neutrinos, and light quanta (photons) that can also be described as particles in quantum mechanics.

Therefore, the theoretical concept of a matter-less and energy-less state that has a measurable temperature doesn’t actually exist, as far as I can see. If you introduce a thermometer into “space”, at some point it will register a temperature above absolute zero.

That is my understanding, though I am always keen to be corrected.

Richard C (NZ)
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Richard C (NZ)

The “other stuff” has no temperature apparently.

I don’t understand why the cosmic microwave background radiation has temperature but the “other stuff” doesn’t (or maybe is does but its close to 0 K).

It could be that cold space and neutral space co-exist.in vacuum space because at least the CMB has temperature.

That would not create a thermal path from atmosphere to space for heat transfer though (i.e. no medium I don’t think). The upper atmosphere is sparse enough, this study concludes particle heating only accounts for 5.5% of upper atmosphere heating if I\m interpreting correctly:-

‘Climatology of Extreme Upper Atmospheric Heating Events’

http://spacewx.com/pdf/COSPAR200222nov.pdf

Quoting:-

“Solar extreme ultraviolet (EUV) radiation is the single largest contributor to the upper atmospheric heating budget and is typically assumed to account for about 80% of the energy. Joule heating [electrical – my insert] and precipitating particle heating, which together we call geomagnetic heating, make significant contributions to the remainder of the budget”

Nothing about how the heat dissipates to space though. They’ve determined the input budget but not the output. I assume the output is all radiative energy (more research reqd by me).

Richard C (NZ)
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Richard C (NZ)

That’s my understanding too Andy (or at least it was) and even if it wasn’t I wouldn’t be the one to correct you because I’m at the edge of my zone.

I’ve mulled over some sort of co-existent state up-thread here:-

https://www.climateconversation.org.nz/open-threads/climate/disproving-agw/#comment-82447

The “other stuff” may have negligible temperature as compared to CMB and the CMB temperature may not be temperature as we know it. O’Sullivan refers to “color temperature” but the Wiki description at my “Clues here” comment says “….the temperature of the CMB as observed in the present day”

Someone has “observed” CMB temperature with some type of instrument somewhere, possibly from both spacecraft and remotely. I’ll have to read the rest of Wiki CMB tomorrow.for clues

(This sure beats being ad hominemed at Hot Topic)

Andy
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Andy

This simple explanation of temperature in space seems to concur, roughly
(The biggest contribution is apparently the background microwave radiation)

http://imagine.gsfc.nasa.gov/docs/ask_astro/answers/980301b.html

Richard C (NZ)
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Richard C (NZ)

Couple of thoughts. CMB is thermal radiation (first sentence):- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cosmic_microwave_background_radiation Neutrinos are elementary subatomic particles:- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neutrino CMB is BACKGROUND, implying there is foreground radiation, however radiation is not a medium that would facilitate HEAT energy transfer from atmosphere to space. Particles such as neutrinos might provide that medium but they are a) traveling too fast, b) too small. There is on the other hand, enough of them “Most neutrinos passing through the Earth emanate from the Sun. About 65 billion (6.5×1010) solar neutrinos per second pass through every square centimeter perpendicular to the direction of the Sun in the region of the Earth” So it is only background (described in Wiki CMB) radiation that has temperature in space that matches the observed 2.7 K to the the theoretically determined 2.7 K (3000 K when the universe was approximately 379,000 years old). Not that I know what I’m talking about of course. On measuring CMB, turns out that the 2.7 K is an “average”:- “Often, experiments are interferometers which only measure the spatial fluctuations in signals on the sky, and are insensitive to the average 2.7 K background” http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cosmic_microwave_background_experiments Search – Cosmic Microwave Background… Read more »

Richard C (NZ)
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Richard C (NZ)

I see Nasif Nahle has a diagram showing upper atmosphere heat transfer and a note attached to atmosphere => space heat flow:-

HEAT ESCAPES TO SPACE (HEAT SINK)

http://www.biocab.org/Heat_Transfer.html

I wonder if he will be making an amendment?

Richard C (NZ)
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Richard C (NZ)

Dr Latour:- “Thermal T is a point property of matter, a scalar measure of its kinetic energy of atomic and molecular motion. It is measured by thermometers. It decreases with altitude. The rate of thermal energy transfer by conduction or convection between hot Th and cold Tc is proportional to (Th – Tc). Radiation t is a point property of massless radiation, EMR, a directional vector measure of its energy transmission rate per area or intensity, w/m2, according to the Stefan-Boltzmann law. It is measured by pyrometers and spectrometers. Solar radiation t increases with altitude. Black bodies are defined to be those that absorb and radiate with the same intensity and corresponding t. Real, colorful bodies reflect, scatter, absorb, convert and emit radiant energy according to the nature of the incident radiation direction, spectrum and body matter reflectivity, absorptivity, emissivity and view factors”. “Much of GHE theory fails to make clear distinctions between these two different kinds of temperature, T and t. One temperature, t, is analogous to velocity, 34 km/hour north; the other, T, is analogous to density, 1 kg/liter.” http://climatechangedispatch.com/home/9799-that-bogus-greenhouse-gas-whatchamacallit-effect There’s the matter-radiation temperature distinction (I thought I had this first… Read more »

Richard C (NZ)
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Richard C (NZ)

I suggest now that we focus on the 2nd part of the new paradigm and check out the validity or otherwise of it. That being GHE COOLING rather than GHE warming.

This is important because it’s completely contrary to Hansen, Spenser, Lindzen et al.

Some points from O’Sullivan’s article:-

# ‘Thermos Flask’ analogy More Compelling than ‘Blanket Effect’

# Time and again independent scientists have demonstrated to leading climatologists in private emails that space has no temperature because it is an empty vacuum and as such acts as a perfect insulator (like a thermos flask). Thus it inhibits the escape of heat energy from Earth’s atmosphere; only the cooling effect of ‘wet’ gases in our turbulent atmosphere dispose of the excess heat energy via convection and conduction.

# The reverse of the alleged greenhouse gas effect is true – atmospheric gases act to keep out planet COOLER than it would otherwise be.

http://climaterealists.com/index.php?id=9167

Richard C (NZ)
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Richard C (NZ)

A GRAPH TO DEBUNK AGW

WORLD TEMPERATURES

Fifty Years of Monthly Temperature Data have NO Correlation with CO2

Diagrams showing HadCRUT3 [see source for GISS, and NCDC] monthly global surface air temperature estimates (blue) and the monthly atmospheric CO2 content (red) according to the Mauna Loa Observatory, Hawaii.

The Mauna Loa data series begins in March 1958, and 1958 has therefore been chosen as starting year for the diagrams. Reconstructions of past atmospheric CO2 concentrations (before 1958) are not incorporated in this diagram, as such past CO2 values are derived by other means (ice cores, stomata, or older measurements using different methodology, and therefore are not directly comparable with modern atmospheric measurements. The dotted grey line indicates the approximate linear temperature trend, and the boxes in the lower part of the diagram indicate the relation between atmospheric CO2 and global surface air temperature, negative or positive.

>>>>>>>>>>

http://climaterealists.com/index.php?id=10257

Richard C (NZ)
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Richard C (NZ)

Man-made global warming theory is falsified by satellite observations

Global warming theory proposes that CO2 traps longwave (infrared) radiation in the troposphere to reduce outgoing longwave radiation [OLR] to space. However, satellite measurements since 1975 indicate that global OLR has instead increased by about 1.3 Wm-2. This is in direct contradiction to global warming theory that “trapping” of radiation by CO2 should have instead reduced* OLR by .93 Wm-2 since 1975.

>>>>>>> [Warning: linear trend]

http://hockeyschtick.blogspot.co.nz/2013/03/man-made-global-warming-theory-is.html

Richard C (NZ)
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Richard C (NZ)

MECHANISMS OF CLIMATE CHANGE

NATURAL CAUSES AND IPCC POSTULATE

THE GEOLOGICAL AND RECENT RECORD

Prof. Peter A. Ziegler Dr. h.c.
February, 2013

http://www.friendsofscience.org/assets/documents/ClimateChange_Ziegler-2013.pdf

Magoo
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Magoo

A couple of interesting quotes from the IPCC regarding the tropospheric hotspot no show. The first from AR4 and the second from AR5 draft:

‘To summarise, the available data do not indicate a detectable trend in upper-tropospheric relative humidity.’ (2007)
http://www.ipcc.ch/publications_and_data/ar4/wg1/en/ch3s3-4-2-2.html

‘In summary, there is a high confidence (robust evidence although only medium agreement) that most, though not all, CMIP3 and CMIP5 models overestimate the warming trend in the tropical troposphere during the satellite period 1979-2011. The cause of this bias remains elusive.’ (2012)
(Section 9.4.1.3.2, p. 9-27, lines 31-33)
http://www.scribd.com/doc/116938885/Ch9-Models-WG1AR5-SOD-Ch09-All-Final

Richard C (NZ)
Guest
Richard C (NZ)

Man-Made Global Warming WRONG – The Ten Reasons. by COHENITE 1 Temperature……. 2 Models………. 3 The sun (1). AGW science says the sun has little effect on temperature compared with CO2 forcing. Dr Ka-Kit Tung disagrees and has compared the long-term solar record with the longest temperature record on the planet, the Central England Temperature [CET]. The final image in Tung’s slide presentation is revealing and shows a remarkable correlation between the CET record and Total Solar Irradiation [TSI]. This correlation between temperature and TSI has also been derived in 2 other studies. The first is by Glassman at Figure 1 where he uses global HADCRUT3 data. The second is by Stockwell at Figures 4-7 where all the major land-based temperature indices are shown to correlate with TSI using his model. Stockwell’s model is simply that temperature responds to TSI mean with the rate of temperature increase/decline determined by the movement away from the mean. 4 The sun (2)……… 5 The sun (3)……….. 6 The Moon……….. 7 Aerosols………… 8 Water…………. 9 Carbon Dioxide (CO2)…….. 10 Angry summer………. http://theclimatescepticsparty.blogspot.co.nz/2013/06/man-made-global-warming-wrong-ten.html From 3 The sun (1), “Tung’s slide presentation”: ‘Evidence for a Multidecadal Oscillation in Global… Read more »

Richard C (NZ)
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Richard C (NZ)

Have laid out the Tung and Zhou, CET/TSI case in the latest Stuff Nation opinion piece on Bill McKibben by Sarah Hardie ‘Time to fight climate change’:

http://www.stuff.co.nz/stuff-nation/assignments/share-your-news-and-views/8804618/Time-to-fight-climate-change

Should send polymath into paroxysms of denial, dismissal, and denegration, if Fone and Harris form is anything to go by. And Hardie form in response to AndicNZ “…no warming for 17 years and 4 months…”:

polymath 6 hours ago

Lies, lies and more lies. […]

Warming has NOT stopped for 17 years, or for any period. Every bit of evidence shows it is still getting warnmer. The models have been succesful – the predictions made in IPCC report in 1990 have been proven correct – the warming we have observed is firmly within the range predicted.

# # #

polymath is an NZer, very prolific, and more than a little manic (but his spelling is atrocious). I think there must be an activist connection somewhere.

Richard Treadgold
Guest

I haven’t read Tung and Zhou so I don’t know their case, but if polymath accepts the IPCC position, it might be useful to mention the increasing divergence in global temperature evolution between model output and observation. Dr Spencer’s interesting graphs at Global Warming Slowdown: The View from Space and EPIC FAIL: 73 Climate Models vs. Observations for Tropical Tropospheric Temperature show considerable disparity. You can see similar divergence in the Climate Lab Book and the IPCC WGI Fifth Assessment Report, Second Order Draft, Chapter 9, p.26, says: ‘Nevertheless, almost all model ensemble members show a warming trend in both LT and MT larger than observational estimates’ and ‘In summary, … most … CMIP3 and CMIP5 models overestimate the warming trend in the tropical troposphere during the satellite period 1979–2011.’ The paper Panel and multivariate methods for tests of trend equivalence in climate data series, McKitrick et al. (2010) states: “Over the interval 1979 to 2009, model-projected temperature trends are two to four times larger than observed trends in both the lower and mid-troposphere and the differences are statistically significant at the 99% level” — a strong sign that the GCMs are not… Read more »

Richard C (NZ)
Guest
Richard C (NZ)

>”I haven’t read Tung and Zhou so I don’t know their case” There’s a link to a slideshow synopsis (T&Z) of their work (Z&T) up-thread but here it is again: http://www.tims.ntu.edu.tw/download/talk/20120918_2297.pdf It’s an easy clear read and among other things corrects Foster and Rahmstorf’s “anthropogenic warming trend” using a longer dataset (HadCRUT4) and F&R’s own methods which I’ve pointed out at Stuff. Z&T introduce AMO cyclicity (quasi 70 yr cycle) as a regressor in addition to F&R’s factors. This is interesting to me because I’ve always thought the 60 year PDO cycle was what produced the oscillation in HadCRUT3/4. Needless to say, Z&T incurred the ire of Foster (Tamino/Open Mind), Real Climate and Skeptical Science and were immediately tagged “deniers”. But if nothing else, take a look at the CET/TSI graph on page 36. 350+ years of clear indication that the sun is the driver of temperature, not CO2. >”…if polymath accepts the IPCC position, it might be useful to mention the increasing divergence in global temperature evolution between model output and observation” Yes, good suggestions, quoting the IPCC is a very good idea and I’ll give it a go, if not for… Read more »

Richard Treadgold
Guest

“here it is again:” Thanks, RC, I’ll have a look.

If it’s made clear that the statements from AR5 are more recent than anything we’ve heard from the IPCC (i.e., they have not been published yet) it should impress any Doubting Thomas.

Good luck.

Richard C (NZ)
Guest
Richard C (NZ)

>”If it’s made clear that the statements from AR5 are more recent than anything we’ve heard from the IPCC”

I’ve done that using the word “latest”, should appear in the next comments update.

What seems to happen is that comments without links get posted first and comments with multiple links have to get dug out of the spam trap so I’ve hedged my bets with two comments, the first one without links pertaining to the IPCC AR5 SOD quote and McKitrick et al, the other a multi-linked comment re models/observations divergence and model invalidation.

UPDATE: the first linkless comment has been posted.

Richard C (NZ)
Guest
Richard C (NZ)

>”Z&T introduce AMO cyclicity (quasi 70 yr cycle) as a regressor in addition to F&R’s factors. This is interesting to me because I’ve always thought the 60 year PDO cycle was what produced the oscillation in HadCRUT3/4″ Turns out its a combo: ‘Paper finds ~50% of warming over past 30 years was due to natural ocean oscillations’ A paper presented at the NTU International Science Conference on Climate Change finds that the natural Pacific Decadal Oscillation [PDO] and Atlantic Multidecadal Oscillation [AMO] are responsible for about 50% of the warming observed over the past 30 years. According to the author, “In the past 30 years, the two multi-decadal oscillations contribute about half of the global mean surface temperature warming.” Prior research has shown that solar activity changes were responsible for at least 50% of the observed warming over the past century. In addition, solar activity has been shown to influence ocean oscillations. Thus, most or all of the observed warming in recent decades can be attributed to natural causes. ‘An Observational Analysis of Oceanic and Atmospheric Structure of Global-Scale Multidecadal Variability’ Prof. Peng Liu ( Department of Atmospheric Sciences, Nanjing University of Information… Read more »

Richard C (NZ)
Guest
Richard C (NZ)

Comments closed after only 88 comments. Fortunately I managed to put my best case and all comments posted although I still had an ace to play (‘Paper finds ~50% of warming over past 30 years was due to natural ocean oscillations’, the other 50% solar).

I guess it wasn’t going so well for Sarah Hardie:

“…it’s going be a dark, scary future, and we have to fight it.”

“So what do we do? How exactly do we fight? And will we win?”

“Are we going to win?”

“I’m going to fight, who’s going to join me?”

Richard C (NZ)
Guest
Richard C (NZ)

>”…managed to put my best case”

Forgot to quote Dr David Whitehouse from ‘The Global Warming Standstill’ (models “on the cusp of falsification”) in conjunction with Dr Roy Spencer’s recent similar statements which I did quote.

Get’s a bit of a head full keeping it all front-of-mind – especially when there’s so much to choose from.

Incidentally, comments in the Fone/Harris thread are now hidden but the time sequence of comments (not the nested reply sequence) can be accessed by clicking the RSS feed. I’m guessing the Sarah Hardie comment thread will be hidden in due course too.

Richard C (NZ)
Guest
Richard C (NZ)

‘How pressure-dependent atmospheric warming explains the entire 33C greenhouse effect’

The Hockey Schtick

Nice to see that others are beginning to appreciate the Maxwell/Carnot/Clausius atmospheric mass/gravity/pressure theory of the greenhouse effect [hotlink], which completely explains the atmospheric temperature profiles from the Earth’s surface all the way to the top of the atmosphere at ~100,000 km, entirely without radiative forcing from greenhouse gas ‘back-radiation’ [hotlink].

The latest is a forthcoming series of articles at the Swedish climate skeptic site Stockholm’s Initiative, the first chapter of which is below [Google translation + editing]. These concepts have been discussed in further detail in the series of Hockey Schtick posts on the ‘greenhouse equation’ [hotlink] and in relation to the Maxwell/Carnot/Clausius atmospheric mass/gravity/pressure theory of the 33K greenhouse effect [hotlink].

‘The atmosphere from inside out’

02/18/2015 by Goran Ahlgren .

Chapter 1.

So here it is:
http://hockeyschtick.blogspot.co.nz/2015/02/how-pressure-dependent-atmospheric.html