Brexit polling as it happens

Early indications are the UK will leave the EU. But at 3:35 pm NZST it’s very close at 10,539,289 to leave and 10,066,155 to stay (difference 473,134). It could go either way.


Leave now 14,899,282 votes; Stay 13,905,623; difference: 993,659.


Leave now 16,285,959 votes; stay 15,154,925; difference: 1,131,034.


Leave now 16,992,701 votes; stay 15,812,943; difference: 1,179,758.
Leave must now win, and we await the final result.




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79 Thoughts on “Brexit polling as it happens

  1. Andy on 24/06/2016 at 3:39 pm said:

    Bookies are calling Brexit at 80% likely

    It is absolutely nail biting stuff

  2. Richard Treadgold on 24/06/2016 at 3:44 pm said:

    I hope they leave. I’m with Dellers on this.

  3. Andy on 24/06/2016 at 3:45 pm said:

    This will also have some implications for climate.
    A large part of the climate gravy train is driven by the EU

  4. Andy on 24/06/2016 at 3:48 pm said:

    ” 04:38: Remain on 11,944,720. Leave gets 12,751,576 votes. This is an 800K margin, going on 1 million. Dimbleby says there is no way “remain” can win. It looks as if we have reversed the decision of the 1975 referendum. We’re out. ”

    This is absolutely massive

  5. Andy on 24/06/2016 at 4:19 pm said:

    I am British, and have been a Eurosceptic almost as long as I have been following the climate debate

    This is an absolutely massive result. I am close to tears

  6. Richard Treadgold on 24/06/2016 at 4:27 pm said:

    Well done to everyone who strove for this result. May Britain, never looking back, become great again.

  7. Richard C (NZ) on 24/06/2016 at 6:23 pm said:

    ‘The European Union: Government by Deception’

    Birth of superstate: Frederick Forsyth on how UNELECTED Brussels bureaucrats SEIZED power

    [Day of the Jackal author Frederick Forsyth]

    There was nothing base or inhumane about Jean Monnet, the French intellectual now seen as the founding father of the dream, nor those who joined him: De Gasperi the Italian, Hallstein the German, Spaak the Belgian and Schumann the Frenchman. In 1945 they were all traumatised men. Each had seen the utter devastation of their native continent by war and after the second they swore to try for the rest of their lives to ensure nothing like it ever happened again. No one can fault that ambition.

    First Monnet analysed what had gone wrong and became obsessed by one single fact. The German people had actually voted the Austrian demagogue into the office of chancellor. What could he, Monnet, learn from this? What he learned stayed with him for the rest of his life and stays with us today in the EU.

    The continent of Europe, from western Ireland to the Russian border, from Norway’s North Cape to Malta’s Valletta harbour, must be unified into one huge superstate. Politically, socially, economically, militarily and constitutionally.

    There could be no war between provinces so war would be banished. (For a man who had witnessed the Spanish Civil War that was an odd conclusion but he came to it. And there was more).

    As coal, iron and steel were the indispensable sinews of war machinery, these industries should be unified under central control. Thus would also be prevented any single state secretly rearming. That at least had the benefit of logic and the Coal and Steel Community was his first success.

    But the big question remained: how should this Europe-wide single state be governed? Then he came to the conclusion that still prevails today. In the 1930s democracy had failed. In Germany, Italy and elsewhere desperate people had flocked to the demagogues who promised full bellies and a job in exchange for marching, chanting columns.

    So democracy must go. It could not be the governmental system of the new Utopia. It was not fit to be. (He was already president of the Action Committee for the Superstate, his official title. There is nothing new about the word superstate).

    Instead there would be a new system: government by an enlightened elite of bureaucrats . The hoi polloi (you and me) were simply too dim, too emotional, too uneducated to be safely allowed to choose their governments.

    It never occurred to him to devise a way to strengthen and fortify democracy to ensure that what happened in Italy and Germany in the 1920s and 1930s could not happen again. No, democracy was unsafe and had to be replaced. (This is not propaganda, he wrote it all down).

    He faced one last stigma as he sought the support of the six who would become the kernel of his dream: Germany (still ruined by war), France (fighting dismal colonial wars in Indochina and Algeria), Italy in her usual chaos, Holland, Belgium and tiny Luxembourg. How could the various peoples ever be persuaded to hand over their countries from democracy to oligarchy, the government of the elite? Let me quote from what he wrote:

    “Europe’s nations should be guided towards the Super-state without their people understanding what is happening. This can be accomplished by successive steps, each disguised as having an economic purpose, but which will eventually and irreversibly lead to federation.”

    In other words he could not force them (he had no tanks). He could not bribe them (he had no money). He could not persuade them (his arguments were offensive). Hence the deliberate recourse to government by deception. Both nostrums continue to this day. Study the Remain campaign and the people behind it.

    Almost without exception they are pillars of the establishment, London-based, accustomed to lavish salaries, administrative power and enormous privilege. None of this applies to 95% of the population. Hence the need for deception.

    At every stage the Remain campaign has stressed the issue is about economics: trade, profits, mortgages, share prices, house values – anything to scare John Citizen into frightened submission. The gravy train of the few must not be derailed. Some of them are already sticking pins into a wax figurine of David Cameron for being soft enough to offer the proles a chance to recover their parliamentary democracy and thus their sovereignty.

    [..] You have repeatedly been told this issue is all about economics. That is the conman’s traditional distraction. This issue is about our governmental system, parliamentary. Democracy versus non-elective bureaucracy utterly dedicated to the eventual Superstate.

    Our democracy was not presented last week on a plate. It took centuries of struggle to create and from 1940 to 1945 terrible sacrifices to defend and preserve.

    It was bequeathed to us by giants, it has been signed away by midgets.

    Now we have a chance, one last, foolishly offered chance to tell those fat cats who so look down upon the rest of us: yes, there will be some costs – but we want it back.

  8. Andy on 24/06/2016 at 7:13 pm said:

    I had the misfortune of listening to RNZ with John Campbell in the car this evening

    It was a wail-fest about how dreadful it was, and that the vote was swung by old people and xenophobia

    There was not a single eurosceptic voice to be heard, to actually listen to the real reasons for Brexit

    There are so many parallels with the climate issue. These guys just don’t get it. They live in an echo chamber of their own making, and don’t seem to realise that a political and cultural revolution is taking place that will make them and their cushy jobs irrelevant

  9. Andy on 24/06/2016 at 8:24 pm said:

    Needless to say the usual suspects are braying about “extreme right wing” elements at Hot Topic, with regard to Brexit

    My comments remain in the moderation queue, though I like to remind them that Tony Benn, an old school UK socialist left winger, was a campaigner against the EU, as were many on the left today

    It isn’t about left vs right.

    In fact, the boundaries of politics are being redrawn right in front of us. It is a very exciting time, almost like the collapse of communism

    It really is a very big deal, this Brexit thing

  10. Andy on 24/06/2016 at 9:52 pm said:

    David Cameron has quit.

    Amazing. What a huge day.

  11. Andy on 24/06/2016 at 10:08 pm said:

    It is worth mentioning here, for those that don’t know, that Richard North (and his son Peter) have been some of the primary drivers for Brexit via the blog

    They have formed the “Flexit” policy which I hear Whitehall are reading now

    FYI Richard North has worked for the EU parliament. Also, he has stirred the climate pot with his exposure of Amazongate and other issues, some that intersect NZ (details on request)

  12. Richard C (NZ) on 25/06/2016 at 9:50 am said:

    >”David Cameron has quit. Amazing. What a huge day.”

    He had to, it was his political misjudgment or blunder might be a better word. He called for the referendum (“foolishly offered chance” as Frederick Forsyth puts it) and he thought he would win. He didn’t realize there were people in England living outside of London who would vote on it.

    Brexit has set the ball rolling in other European countries now. A light is dawning.

  13. Richard C (NZ) on 25/06/2016 at 10:35 am said:

    >”Brexit has set the ball rolling in other European countries now. A light is dawning.”

    Rexit spillover thermometer: key countries [Table]

    From – ‘An arrogant centralized EU is no longer sustainable’ by Luboš Motl

    Euroskeptics in many countries of the remaining EU27 have been greatly encouraged. A table [linked above] shows someone’s opinion about the most likely countries of EU27 that may leave after Britain. Czechia – with its Czexit that began to be called Czech-out only today (a word that sports journalists have used dozens of times before) – and Denmark are labeled as “code red”.

    Denmark is listed as “red” because a patriotic pro-people party DF has about 17% and may want to introduce its Danexit bill. Czechia is probably more red. The table only lists the Parliamentary (basically unreformed) communist party with its 15% and three UKIP-like parties with 3% each as the “drivers” (one of them is the Party of Free Citizens; its chairman Petr Mach, a member of the European Parliament whom I said “hi” on Sunday, said that he would be honored to lead the Czech-out campaign today).

    But this description is way too EU-optimistic. In reality, several other parties could easily turn into full-fledged supporters of the Czech-out. That includes ODS, the Klaus-founded (but no longer too close to Klaus) currently center-right party that nominally wants to preserve the EU but has lots and lots of complaints about the solutions adopted by the EU in recent years. The finance minister and billionaire Babiš (and his ANO/YES party of the Führer type that is obliged to be obedient to him) actually has opinions on the EU close enough to ODS and others, too. I actually “liked” 3 tweets of him on Twitter today.

    Social democracy in the government, its small KDU coalition partner, and TOP09 in the opposition are seemingly strongly pro-EU. But many of their lawmakers could still be capable of approving a referendum. A month or two ago, the lawmakers already scheduled a discussion about the Czech-out referendum. Because of a shortage of time, this item wasn’t discussed at the end… A referendum could end with a 70% result for Czech-out. Once such a referendum were scheduled, it could be a done deal. Even though we don’t have any sizable portion of the immigrants here, over 95% of Czechs were terrified by the EU approach to this issue and it would almost certainly be the most important (albeit not quite unique) driver of the Leave vote.

    The table lists Austria (with Oustria), Netherlands (Nexit), Finland (Finnish), Poland, Hungary, and Sweden as “code orange”. Other countries such as Portugal (the exit is known as Departugal or Portugone) and Italy (exit: Italeave) are absent. There are various political forces that could support the exit from the EU in those countries. But you should understand that each of these countries is very different. Especially if you’re American, you may misunderstand the fact that e.g. the difference between Czechia and Poland is vastly larger than the difference between Texas and Arizona. For example, a referendum in Poland would almost certainly say Remain, in a striking contrast with Czechia. Poles like to view themselves as some important components of the Western European or trans-Atlantic power blocs. We the Czechs mostly don’t because 1) we have our suspicions about the perfection of our more Western friends and everybody else, 2) we have even greater doubts about our importance and the question whether we matter for anyone else. Although Czechia is ahead of Poland in numerous respects, it’s simply not popular for us to pretend to be a regional power or things like that.

    The table claims that Germany and France (exit: Fraurevoir) are safely in the EU and no exit could be approved anytime soon. I am not so sure about France.

    At any rate, there is a potential for the domino effect. What can the EU officials afford to do in the near future?'s+reference+frame)

  14. Richard C (NZ) on 25/06/2016 at 10:38 am said:

    Should be – “[Brexit] spillover thermometer”

  15. Andy on 25/06/2016 at 11:41 am said:

    The Press this morning is just dreadful. They basically dismiss 52% of the British public as racist bigots.

    There is no political analysis at all. The “liberal elite” have signed their own death warrant. They simply don’t get it

  16. Andy on 25/06/2016 at 11:24 pm said:

    Thomas at HT is, as always, absolutely hilarious in his comments about Brexit

    I’m still waiting for a single person in the NZ MSM to put the pro-Brexit case.

    Or, perhaps, the new model is to assume that more than 50% of your potential customers are morons and wonder why no one buys your products anymore.

    Because they are morons, obviously

    >> You people are “literally Hitler”

    Not a great marketing line

  17. Andy on 25/06/2016 at 11:38 pm said:

    Here we go.

    Those evil climate deniers are behind Brexit

    If this isn’t a sign of a global conspiracy, then I don’t know what is

  18. Richard C (NZ) on 26/06/2016 at 9:52 am said:

    ‘UN boss: Brexit would mean rewriting Paris Agreement on climate change’

    23 June 2016, source edie newsroom

    A vote for Brexit in tomorrow’s UK referendum on EU membership (23 June) would mean that the COP21 agreement would have to be rewritten, the executive secretary of the UN Framework Convention on Climate Change said on Wednesday (22 June) in Brussels.

    Christiana Figueres, one of the architects of the historic deal struck last December to limit warming to no more than two degrees above pre-industrial levels, said the international pact, “would require recalibration”. It is currently in the process of ratification.

    “From the point of view of the Paris Agreement, the UK is part of the EU and has put in its effort as part of the EU so anything that would change that would require a recalibration,” she said at a press conference.

    “In principle, it is actually, historically, we say, as humankind, we are moving towards larger and larger tents of collaboration […] rather than in the opposite way.”


    # # #


    >”“In principle, it is actually, historically, we say, as humankind, we are…….”

    “We are” not in Britain apparently, and other European countries lining up to move to smaller tents too Christiana – “in principle”.

  19. Richard C (NZ) on 26/06/2016 at 10:41 am said:

    ‘Thank you, America!’

    By Christopher Monckton of Brenchley / 23 hours ago June 24, 2016

    For my final broadcast to the nation on the eve of Britain’s Independence Day, the BBC asked me to imagine myself as one of the courtiers to whom Her Majesty had recently asked the question, “In one minute, give three reasons for your opinion on whether my United Kingdom should remain in or leave the European Union.”

    My three reasons for departure, in strict order of precedence, were Democracy, Democracy, and Democracy. For the so-called “European Parliament” is no Parliament. It is a mere duma. It lacks even the power to bring forward a bill, and the 28 faceless, unelected, omnipotent Kommissars – the official German name for the shadowy Commissioners who exercise the supreme lawmaking power that was once vested in our elected Parliament – have the power, under the Treaty of Maastricht, to meet behind closed doors to override in secret any decision of that “Parliament” at will, and even to issue “Commission Regulations” that bypass it altogether.

    Worse, the treaty that established the European Stability Pact gives its governing body of absolute bankers the power, at will and without consultation, to demand any sum of money, however large, from any member state, and every member of that governing body, personally as well as collectively, is held entirely immune not only from any civil suit but also from any criminal prosecution.

    That is dictatorship in the formal sense. Good riddance to it.

    I concluded my one-minute broadcast with these words: “Your Majesty, with my humble duty, I was born in a democracy; I do not live in one; but I am determined to die in one.”

    And now I shall die in one. In the words of William Pitt the Younger after the defeat of Napoleon, “England has saved herself by her exertions, and will, as I trust, save Europe by her example.”

    Indeed, No-way and Nixerland having already voted down the EU, Brexit may well be swiftly followed by Frexit, Grexit, Departugal, Italeave, Czechout, Oustria, Finish, Slovakuum, Latviaticum and Byebyegium. At this rate, soon the only country still participating in the European tyranny-by-clerk will be Remainia.

    The people have spoken. And the democratic spirit that inspired just over half the people of Britain to vote for national independence has its roots in the passionate devotion of the Founding Fathers of the United States to democracy. Our former colony showed us the way. Today, then, an even more heartfelt than usual “God bless America!”

    All who have studied the Madison papers will grasp the greatness of the Founding Fathers’ vision. They were determined that no law and no tax should be inflicted upon any citizen except by the will of elected representatives of the people in Congress assembled.

    They regarded this democratic principle as of such central importance that they wrote it down as Article 1, Section 1 of the Constitution of the United States: “All legislative power herein granted shall be vested in a Congress of the United States, which shall consist of a Senate and House of Representatives.” Period. No ifs. No buts. No exceptions.

    Except one. The Constitution establishes that foreign treaties ratified by a two-thirds majority of the Senate shall have the same force of law throughout the United States as enactments of Congress.

    It is, therefore possible for any U.S. Government that can muster that Senate majority to ratify any treaty and thereby to thwart the central principle of Congressional democracy: that no Congress may bind its successors.

    The Republicans, who are not always as lively in their understanding of the threat to democracy posed by supranational and global institutions such as the EU, the UN and its bloated climate bureaucracy, are too often snared or charmed by determined “Democrats” who fully understand and thirst to exercise the power to inflict perma-Socialism on their nation by bilateral, multilateral or global treaties.

    Continues at length >>>>>>>

    # # #

    Andy, you will like this I’m sure:

    >”Now that the EU and its devoted poodle Mr Cameron have been consigned to the trashcan of history, it is near-certain that any new British Cabinet will take a more alert and less acquiescent stance than the present lot on the climate question.”

    I like this:

    “The necessity to protect the flagile flower of democracy from the scythe of Socialism is now surely self-evident.”

  20. Andy on 26/06/2016 at 11:22 am said:

    Its not over until the fat lady sings. Britain needs to invoke Article 50 of the Lisbon Treaty

    There is also talk of a second referendum. The EU are good like this, they did it to Ireland until they got the result they wanted on the Lisbon Treaty

    The genie is out of the bottle though. The political elite are crapping themselves

    Good riddance

  21. Mike Jowsey on 26/06/2016 at 4:54 pm said:

    Thoroughly agree. An historic moment. A victory for democracy.

  22. Andy on 27/06/2016 at 10:23 am said:

    This is quite a good piece from Bryan Gould

    Gould is a former UK Labour MP, NZer and now an NZ academic.

    It’s interesting to get the left eurosceptic view. I’ve thought this for a long time, that the Left have abandoned their core constituency.

  23. Andy on 27/06/2016 at 12:58 pm said:

    Richard North and colleagues have developed the exit plan for UK from EU and is entitled “Flexit”

    Is is several hundred pages long; quite a remarkable piece of work for some unpaid bloggers

  24. Andy on 27/06/2016 at 1:14 pm said:

    Shub’s post on the Tweeting on the climate establishment about Brexit is interesting

    I like his comment that “climate change” is a news headline parasite

  25. Richard C (NZ) on 28/06/2016 at 5:33 pm said:

    ‘Why the British said no to Europe’

    John Pilger, 26 Jun, 2016

    […] Little of this social catastrophe is acknowledged in the bourgeois controlled media, notably the Oxbridge dominated BBC. During the referendum campaign, almost no insightful analysis was allowed to intrude upon the clichéd hysteria about “leaving Europe”, as if Britain was about to be towed in hostile currents somewhere north of Iceland.

    On the morning after the vote, a BBC radio reporter welcomed politicians to his studio as old chums. “Well,” he said to “Lord” Peter Mandelson, the disgraced architect of Blairism, “why do these people want it so badly?” The “these people” are the majority of Britons.

    The wealthy war criminal Tony Blair remains a hero of the Mandelson “European” class, though few will say so these days. The Guardian once described Blair as “mystical” and has been true to his “project” of rapacious war.

    The day after the vote, the columnist Martin Kettle offered a Brechtian solution to the misuse of democracy by the masses. “Now surely we can agree referendums are bad for Britain”, said the headline over his full-page piece. The “we” was unexplained but understood – just as “these people” is understood. “The referendum has conferred less legitimacy on politics, not more,” wrote Kettle. “ … the verdict on referendums should be a ruthless one. Never again.”

    The kind of ruthlessness Kettle longs is found in Greece, a country now airbrushed. There, they had a referendum and the result was ignored.


    On the eve of the referendum, the quisling Secretary-General of Nato, Jens Stoltenberg, warned Britons they would be endangering “peace and security” if they voted to leave the EU. The millions who ignored him and Cameron, Osborne, Corbyn, Obama and the man who runs the Bank of England may, just may, have struck a blow for real peace and democracy in Europe.

  26. Richard C (NZ) on 28/06/2016 at 5:44 pm said:

    ‘I walked from Liverpool to London. Brexit was no surprise’

    Mike Carter

    Thatcherism devastated communities throughout industrial England that have never recovered. Their pain explains why people voted to leave in the EU referendum

    On 2 May this year, I set off to walk from Liverpool to London, a journey of 340 miles that would take me a month. I was walking in the footsteps of the People’s March for Jobs, a column of 300-odd unemployed men and women who, on the same day in 1981, exactly 35 years previously, had set off from the steps of St George’s Hall to walk to Trafalgar Square.

    In the two years after Margaret Thatcher had been elected, unemployment had gone from 1 to 3 million, as her policies laid waste to Britain’s manufacturing base. In 1981, we saw Rupert Murdoch buy the Times and Sunday Times. We witnessed inner-city riots, unprecedented in their scale and violence, in Liverpool and London. The formation of the SDP split the left. The Tories lost their first assault on the coal miners, capitulating over the closure of 23 pits.

    My father, Pete Carter, was one of those who organised the original walk. My journey was an attempt to work out what had happened to Britain in the intervening years. What I saw and heard gave me an alarming sense of how the immense social changes wrought by Thatcherism are still having a profound effect on communities all over England. It also meant that when I awoke last Friday to the result of the EU referendum, I wasn’t remotely surprised.


    I walked through Widnes and Warrington, past huge out-of-town shopping centres and through the wastelands of industrial decay. In Salford, down streets where all the pubs were boarded up and local shops, if you could find them, had brick walls for windows and prison-like metal doors, I found an Airbnb. My host was selling her terraced house. I sat in her living room as the estate agent brought around potential buyers. They were all buy-to-let investors from the south of England, building property portfolios in the poverty, as if this was one giant fire sale.


    Stafford, Cannock, Wolverhampton. Different towns, same message: “There’s no decent work”; “the politicians don’t care about us”; “we’ve been forgotten”; “betrayed”; “there’s too many immigrants, and we can’t compete with the wages they’ll work for”. Nobody used the word humiliation, but that’s the sense I got


    Nuneaton, the home town of George Eliot and Ken Loach, had more charity shops in its high street than anywhere I’ve ever seen. And some of those charity shops had closed down. What does it say about a town when even the charity shops are struggling?


    In Coventry, whose car industry is now mostly gone, there seemed to be a construction frenzy. These were mostly new buildings for the colleges and universities, competing not only for a bigger share of domestic students but also for the lucrative foreign student market. A friend doing an MA in the city told me that 90% of the students on his course were from overseas, and the majority of them Chinese.


    I walked into central London, through Chiswick, past people sitting at pavement cafes, shops selling expensive furniture, estate agents offering two-bedroom flats for a million pounds. Through Hyde Park and on to Wellington Arch, with all the pomp and puffery of empire, and then Buckingham Palace, as tourists lapped up the pageantry. I was in, literally and spiritually, another country.

    In 1935, a young Laurie Lee set off to walk across Spain, from north to south. In the book the adventure would eventually lead to, As I Walked Out One Midsummer Morning, Lee describes a country riven by inequality, of communities in grinding poverty, and an out-of-touch ruling elite. The fascists and the communists both laid claim to the discontents, the rhetoric becoming increasingly polarised. The narrative resonated across the European continent. By the time Lee got to Malaga, in the summer of 1936, the Spanish civil war had begun.


  27. Richard C (NZ) on 28/06/2016 at 6:01 pm said:

    ‘UK Will Emerge From Brexit Just Fine, It’s Europe That’s In Trouble (CNBC)’

    Nevermind the Brexit, UK will emerge with a good trade deal
    Dr. Michael Ivanovitch | Monday, 27 Jun 2016

    The British never wanted to be part of a German-dominated European federal super state. The exit from the EU will allow the U.K. to reclaim parts of national authority that its political elites ceded to unelected Brussels officials free of any meaningful democratic oversight. The scare-mongering about the end of the U.K. and the unraveling EU is meaningless. My guess is that the U.K. will do better that the unwieldy “union” of 27 countries whose leaders have yet to figure out where they are going. But let’s take a look at the U.K. first. The first good sign is that the leave leaders are behaving in the tradition of the British battle cry: “Keep Calm and Carry On.”

    They are watching the fury and the confusion in Berlin, Paris and Brussels. The leading voices in these capitals are screaming for an expeditious divorce as a swift and exemplary punishment (yes, to deter other would-be exit followers), because the Europe’s oldest parliamentary democracy spoke for the rest of the continent and dared to denounce the EU’s failing ways. In case you wondered, that is how low the ideal of European brotherhood and union has fallen. These muddled up and agitated minds in Paris, Berlin and Brussels will just create more chaos and alienate more people who were looking at the EU as a haven of peace and prosperity. The leave people, by contrast, are playing with an uncanny gemütlichkeit. They are saying that they are Europeans, and that they just want to build a close European relationship of a different kind.

    Will that work? All we hear now is that it won’t. Well, maybe there is some prescience in there, but please take a look at these numbers. The U.K. is by far Germany’s most profitable export market. Last year, Germany’s trade surplus with the U.K. came in at €51 billion, accounting for 34% of the German surplus with the EU. That surplus was also 42% higher than the German trade surplus with France, Berlin’s largest European trade partner. With its €89.3 billion worth of exports to the U.K. last year, Britain is Germany’s third-largest export market, after the U.S. and France. Will Germany give this up by shutting the U.K. out of a free-trade agreement with the EU? Of course it won’t.

  28. Mike Jowsey on 28/06/2016 at 7:10 pm said:

    I like his comment that “climate change” is a news headline parasite

    Love it. Must remember that next time someone suggests several headlines are evidence of CAGW.

  29. Mike Jowsey on 28/06/2016 at 7:19 pm said:

    Catweazel’s comment is pdg:

    Not only have the British frustrated the aims of an entirely undemocratic authoritarian regime effectively based in Berlin for the third time in a century – and for once without a shot being fired or a drop of blood spilt – but we are set fair to cause considerable, possibly irreparable damage to the Globalist agenda of de-industrialising the West in the cause of redistribution of wealth too.

    All in all, not a bad day’s work on the 23rd of June!

  30. Richard C (NZ) on 28/06/2016 at 7:47 pm said:

    ‘Grieve now if you must – but prepare for the great challenges ahead ‘ – Owen Jones

    A working-class revolt has taken place, and frustration is spilling out in all sorts of directions. If Britain is to have a future, the escalating culture wars have to stop

    “Millions of Britons feel that a metropolitan elite rules the roost which not only doesn’t understand their values and lives, but actively hates them. If Britain is to have a future, this escalating culture war has to be stopped.”

    H/t Andy at HT.

    # # #

    London wealth is a mirage. fools gold. A glitter and bling culture to be enjoyed for a while by those immersed in it but there’s no substance. There’s a massive culture shock on the way I’m pickin’.

  31. Mike Jowsey on 28/06/2016 at 7:56 pm said:

    There’s a massive culture shock on the way I’m pickin’.

    Has been building for decades. Historical stuff, like the Berlin Wall. And now the chaff and the wheat may separate. Maybe even the faceless unelected bureaucrats who drive the CAGW agenda will have other things to think about. Like, do they have a job for long?

  32. Richard C (NZ) on 29/06/2016 at 10:37 am said:

    ‘Greenspan Warns A Crisis Is Imminent, Urges A Return To The Gold Standard’

    by Tyler Durden, Jun 28, 2016


    Of course, Greenspan ignores his own role in the creation of the boom-bust cycle which has doomed the world to series of ever more destructive bubbles and ultimately, hyperinflation which will likely be unlashed once the helicopter money inevitably arrives. In retrospect, the 90-year-old, who clearly is looking forward not backward, has a simple solution: the gold standard.

    “If we went back on the gold standard and we adhered to the actual structure of the gold standard as it exited prior to 1913, we’d be fine. Remember that the period 1870 to 1913 was one of the most aggressive periods economically that we’ve had in the United States, and that was a golden period of the gold standard. I’m known as a gold bug and everyone laughs at me, but why do central banks own gold now?

    Why indeed. And of course, that’s rhetorical.

    # # #

    NOW he tells us?

    NOW he states the obvious?

    A bit late Alan.

  33. Richard C (NZ) on 29/06/2016 at 10:42 am said:

    ‘European Banks Crash To Worst 2-Day Loss Ever As Default Risk Soars’

    by Tyler Durden, Jun 27, 2016

    So much for George “Panic-Monger” Osborne’s calming statement this morning, European banks have collapsed this morning to close down between 20% and 30% since the Brexity vote. The last 2 days plunge in EU banks (down 23%) is the largest in history (double the size of Lehman) and pushes European bank equity market cap to its lowest (in USD terms) ever.


    [See graphs]

  34. Richard C (NZ) on 29/06/2016 at 10:47 am said:

    ‘Brexit Is the Sum of China’s Fears’

    By Christopher Balding, June 27, 2016

    In voting to leave the European Union, the U.K. has confirmed many of the Chinese Communist Party’s worst fears about democracy. Now the question is whether Brexit will also impede its attempts at economic reform.

  35. Richard C (NZ) on 29/06/2016 at 10:56 am said:

    ‘Italy Eyes €40 Billion Bank Rescue As First Brexit Domino Falls’

    By Ambrose Evans-Pritchard, 27 June 2016

    Italy is preparing a €40bn rescue of its financial system as bank shares collapse on the Milan bourse and the powerful after-shocks of Brexit shake European markets. An Italian government task force is watching events hour by hour, pledging all steps necessary to ensure the stability of the banks. “Italy will do everything necessary to reassure people,” said premier Matteo Renzi.

    “This is the moment of truth we have all been waiting for a long time. We just didn’t know it would be Brexit that set the elephant loose,” said a top Italian banker. The share price of banks crashed for a second trading day, with Intesa Sanpaolo off 12.5pc, and falls of 12pc for Banka MPS, 10.4pc for Mediobana, and 8pc for Unicredit. These lenders have lost a third of their value since Britain’s referendum.

    “When Britain sneezes, Italy catches a cold. It is the weakest link in the European chain,” said Lorenzo Codogno, former director-general of the Italian treasury and now at LC Macro Advisors. The country is the first serious casualty of Brexit contagion and a reminder that the economic destinies of Britain and the rest of Europe are intimately entwined.

    # # #

    >”“This is the moment of truth we have all been waiting for a long time”

    Why were they waiting?

  36. Richard C (NZ) on 29/06/2016 at 11:27 am said:

    ‘The Reaction to Brexit Is the Reason Brexit Happened’

    If you believe there’s such a thing as “too much democracy,” you probably don’t believe in democracy at all

    By Matt Taibbi June 27, 2016

    Were I British, I’d probably have voted to Remain. But it’s not hard to understand being pissed off at being subject to unaccountable bureaucrats in Brussels. Nor is it hard to imagine the post-Brexit backlash confirming every suspicion you might have about the people who run the EU. Imagine having pundits and professors suggest you should have your voting rights curtailed because you voted Leave. Now imagine these same people are calling voters like you “children,” and castigating you for being insufficiently appreciative of, say, the joys of submitting to a European Supreme Court that claims primacy over the Magna Carta and the Bill of Rights. The overall message in every case is the same: Let us handle things. But whatever, let’s assume that the Brexit voters, like Trump voters, are wrong, ignorant, dangerous and unjustified.

    Even stipulating to that, the reaction to both Brexit and Trump reveals a problem potentially more serious than either Brexit or the Trump campaign. It’s become perilously fashionable all over the Western world to reach for non-democratic solutions whenever society drifts in a direction people don’t like. Here in America the problem is snowballing on both the right and the left. Whether it’s Andrew Sullivan calling for Republican insiders to rig the nomination process to derail Trump’s candidacy, or Democratic Party lifers like Peter Orszag arguing that Republican intransigence in Congress means we should turn more power over to “depoliticized commissions,” the instinct to act by diktat surfaces quite a lot these days. “Too much democracy” used to be an argument we reserved for foreign peoples who tried to do things like vote to demand control over their own oil supplies.

    # # #

    >”It’s become perilously fashionable all over the Western world to reach for non-democratic solutions whenever society drifts in a direction people don’t like.”

    Nigel Farage’s “little people” seized the only avenue available to them which happened to be democratic thanks to Cameron. The elite don’t like “little people” (“wrong, ignorant, dangerous and unjustified”).

  37. Richard C (NZ) on 29/06/2016 at 11:53 am said:

    Taibbi, preceding quote above and snippet after:

    Because the vote was viewed as having been driven by the same racist passions that are fueling the campaign of Donald Trump, a wide swath of commentators suggested that democracy erred, and the vote should perhaps be canceled, for the Britons’ own good. Social media was filled with such calls. “Is it just me, or does #Brexit seem like a moment when the government should overrule a popular referendum?” wrote one typical commenter. On op-ed pages, there was a lot of the same. Harvard economics professor and chess grandmaster Kenneth Rogoff wrote a piece for the Boston Globe called “Britain’s democratic failure” in which he argued:

    “This isn’t democracy; it is Russian roulette for republics. A decision of enormous consequence… has been made without any appropriate checks and balances.”

    Rogoff then went on to do something that’s become popular in pundit circles these days: He pointed to the lessons of antiquity. Going back thousands of years, he said, Very Smart People have warned us about the dangers of allowing the rabble to make decisions.

    “Since ancient times,” he wrote, “philosophers have tried to devise systems to try to balance the strengths of majority rule against the need to ensure that informed parties get a larger say in critical decisions.”

    Presumably playing the role of one of the “informed parties” in this exercise, Rogoff went on:

    “By some accounts… Athens had implemented the purest historical example of democracy,” he wrote. “Ultimately, though, after some catastrophic war decisions, Athenians saw a need to give more power to independent bodies.”

    This is exactly the argument that British blogging supernova Andrew Sullivan unleashed a few months ago in his 8,000-word diatribe against Donald Trump, “Democracies end when they are too democratic.” Like Rogoff, Sullivan argued that over-democratic societies drift into passionate excesses, and need that vanguard of Very Smart People to make sure they don’t get themselves into trouble.

    “Elites matter in a democracy,” Sullivan argued, because they are the “critical ingredient to save democracy from itself.”

    I would argue that voters are the critical ingredient to save elites from themselves, but Sullivan sees it the other way, and has Plato on his side. Though some of his analysis seems based on a misread of ancient history (see here for an amusing exploration of the topic), he’s right about Plato, the source of a lot of these “the ancients warned us about democracy” memes. He just left out the part where Plato, at least when it came to politics, was kind of a jerk. The great philosopher despised democracy, believing it to be a system that blurred necessary social distinctions, prompting children, slaves and even animals to forget their places. He believed it a system that leads to over-permissiveness, wherein the people “drink too deeply of the strong wine of freedom.” Too much license, Plato wrote (and Sullivan echoed), leads to a spoiled populace that will turn to a strongman for revenge if anyone gets in the way of the party. These “men of naught” will inevitably denounce as oligarchs any wise group of rulers who try to set basic/sensible rules for society.

    You have to be a snob of the first order, completely high on your own gas, to try to apply these arguments to present-day politics, imagining yourself as an analog to Plato’s philosopher-kings. And you have to have a cast-iron head to not grasp that saying stuff like this out loud is part of what inspires populations to movements like Brexit or the Trump campaign in the first place.


    Forget Plato, Athens, Sparta and Rome. More recent history tells us that the descent into despotism always starts in this exact same way. There is always an emergency that requires a temporary suspension of democracy.

    # # #

    >”There is always an emergency that requires a temporary suspension of democracy.”

    Like climate change.

  38. Richard C (NZ) on 29/06/2016 at 12:40 pm said:

    ‘Anger as EU parliament debates Brexit’ – RNZ

    Belgian ex-Prime Minister Guy Verhofstadt – “Finally we are going to get rid of the biggest waste in the EU budget, which we have paid for 17 years, your salary!” he told Mr Farage.

    # # #

    Goes for all the other EU salaries too, including Verhofstadt’s, except for the “finally we are going to get rid of” part.

  39. Andy on 29/06/2016 at 1:36 pm said:

    I recommend “Brexit the Movie” on Youtube (70 mins)

    Apparently about 10,000 people in the EU get paid more than David Cameron. They get massive perks, their own shopping mall and their own tax rate.

    MEPs just rubber stamp decisions made by civil servants. The have no power of veto

    Basically, it’s an anti-democratic, corrupt, out of control political machine that sees itself as forming a European Superstate

  40. Richard C (NZ) on 29/06/2016 at 4:51 pm said:

    >”Apparently about 10,000 people in the EU get paid more than David Cameron. They get massive perks, their own shopping mall and their own tax rate. MEPs just rubber stamp decisions made by civil servants. The have no power of veto”

    Surely this got thinking Europeans thinking before Brexit? Or if they had not thought until now, this attention will get them thinking surely?

    If Fraurevoir gets going in France – look out! The French don’t hold back on burning issues. I talked to a women on this some time back. She had lived in Europe for a while and married a German. She thought Europeans all over were “more reserved” than Americans on just about everything, but mostly flaunting wealth. I didn’t say much but thought of the French Riviera, French farmer protests, 1968 student riots, French Revolution and such like.

    But look no further than La Marseillaise, the French National Anthem:

    Let’s go children of the fatherland,
    The day of glory has arrived!
    Against us tyranny’s
    Bloody flag is raised! (repeat)
    In the countryside, do you hear
    The roaring of these fierce soldiers?
    They come right to our arms
    To slit the throats of our sons, our friends!


    Grab your weapons, citizens!
    Form your batallions!
    Let us march! Let us march!
    May impure blood
    Water our fields!

    Continues in this vein>>>>>>

    Reserved? No. And sounds like Fraurevoir to me.

  41. Richard C (NZ) on 30/06/2016 at 10:17 am said:

    President Of The European Parliament: ‘It Is Not The EU Philosophy That The Crowd Can Decide Its Fate’

    Written by Tyler Durden, Zero Hedge. Monday June 27, 2016

    If anyone needs another confirmation that the European Union is fundamentally the most anti-democratic entity currently in existence, then the following statement by European Parliament Martin Schultz should put all confusion to rest.

    Schulz: “The British have violated the rules. It is not the EU philosophy that the crowd can decide its fate”.

    Schulz: “The British have violated the rules. It is not the #EU philosophy that the crowd can decide its fate”. #TBC

    — TaleofTwoTreaties (@Taleof2Treaties) June 27, 2016

    Confused: Here is what Deutsche Bank said earlier today:

    The shockwaves and consequences around Brexit will resonate for years. It’s probably an understatement to say that most in financial markets regret the UK’s decision to leave but we should respect the forces that have been pushing us towards what has always been an inevitable political accident sometime soon. I wasn’t sure whether the Brexit vote was the one but I was pretty convinced one was coming and this is probably not the last. Spain yesterday started a general election cycle (more below but relatively market friendly) of the largest 5 euro-area economies (Spain, Holland, France, Germany and Italy) over the next 18 months or so, not forgetting the US this November. Throw in the crucial senate reform vote in Italy in October and you’ve got plenty of opportunity for rebellion against the establishment that haven’t managed to produce satisfactory enough growth for the lower paid/lower skilled to offset the forces of globalisation and immigration.

    It’s worth looking at the voting split in the UK’s EU referendum based on polls compiled by Lord Ashcroft to get an idea of the disenfranchisement. In terms of socio-economic groups, 57% of ABs (upper/middle class – professional/managers etc) voted remain, 49% of C1s (lower middle class – supervisory/clerical or junior management/administrative), 36% of C2s (skilled working class) and 36% of DEs (Ds – semi & unskilled manual workers. Es – casual/lowest grade worker or state pensioner). So there’s no escaping the fact that this is a class war. Whether its globalisation, immigration, inequality, poor economic growth or a combination of all of them it’s quite clear from this and other anti-establishment movements that the status quo can’t last in a democracy. Eventually you’ll have a reaction. This is one such major reaction and given that the UK growth rate has been ok of late, it would be strange if pressure didn’t continue to build elsewhere where growth has been lower for longer.

    It is indeed a class war, and the European “Union” is not used to losing…

  42. Andy on 30/06/2016 at 10:28 am said:

    Thomas is always good for a laugh. He says

    “There is no longer a United Kingdom following the Brexit betrail by the bozon and his muppet:”

    Ohhh Kaaay….

  43. Richard C (NZ) on 30/06/2016 at 10:38 am said:

    >”Brexit betrail”

    Should that read “bee trail”, as in a line of bees?

  44. Richard C (NZ) on 30/06/2016 at 10:48 am said:

    “The EU is the sack the cats will fight in”

    From “Britain Can’t Stand On Its Own Two Legs” [and other nut-case opinions] – by Raúl Ilargi Meijer

    […] ‘Britain faces an uncertain future’. How awful is that? Still, I bet you, when next time it sounds even halfway convenient, uncertainty will get to mean ‘opportunity’. Oh, and don’t you, too, hate the implications of a word like ‘nervousness’, as in: “everyone’s nervous”? Well, unless one’s favorite musician or athlete talks about the ‘healthy nervousness‘ necessary to perform well.

    Much respected economist/writer Edward Harrison says on Twitter: “.. this is the part I HATE. We are, what, 5 days into this. No one knows how severe the Market reaction will be. It’s ludicrous..”

    And I’m like, chill, mate, why is it ludicrous that you can’t predict what ‘The Markets’ reaction to something, anything will be? If that’s something you HATE, maybe you should not be in the game, or in the kitchen for that matter.

    The markets are not supposed to be predictable, and when they are, it means someone is manipulating them, and someone else is paying for that predictability, and that second someone is invariably not in on ‘the game’.

    Kids say the darndest things. So do investors and economists.


    The grandiose EU project of an ever closer union is running into the limits of economics as well as physics [in respect to Green agenda]. European nations can work together, but not when they’re forced to give up their sovereignty, their independence and their livelihoods.

    That will lead them to turn on each other. There’s no escaping it. The EU is the sack the cats will fight in.

  45. Richard C (NZ) on 30/06/2016 at 11:11 am said:

    Articles featured at Debt Rattle today (all on one page linked below):

    • 16 Reasons To Celebrate Brexit’s Win (Bandow)
    • Brexit, a Step in the Right Direction (OTM)
    • Brexit Pulls Central Bankers In Conflicting Directions (WSJ)
    • When Central Planning Fails (ZH)
    • Cameron Wins Brexit Breathing Space At Gloomy EU Summit (AFP)
    • Draghi Wishes for a World Order Populists Will Love to Hate (BBG)
    • Exposure Of Asian Economies To UK Banks Will Cause Sharp Slowdown (SCMP)
    • Japan Inc.’s Yen Nightmare Looms at Large Exporters (BBG)
    • Robot Lawyer Overturns 160,000 Parking Tickets In London And New York (G.)
    • Oil Is Still Heading to $10 a Barrel (A. Gary Shilling)
    • A Zombie Is A Terrible Thing To Behold (Jim Kunstler)
    • Elites, ‘You’re Fired!’ (Dmitry Orlov)
    • The World Is Rejecting Globalization (Bernie Sanders)
    • Dutch PM Rutte Wants ‘Binding’ Assurances Over EU’s Ukraine Deal (R.)

    # # #

    This page is well worth a skim.

  46. Andy on 30/06/2016 at 11:20 am said:

    Branson to move Virgin empire to Switzerland

    This is the guy lecturing Brits to stay in the EU yet uses non-EU Switzerland as a tax haven.

  47. Andy on 30/06/2016 at 12:00 pm said:

    Epic rant from Paul Joseph Watson

    (NSFW )

  48. Richard C (NZ) on 30/06/2016 at 12:26 pm said:

    ‘The MEPs clucked like a barn full of free-range hens: QUENTIN LETTS sees Nigel Farage outrage Brussels ‘

    From Belgium to Westminster, what a mad, invigorating, double-take of a day. Plots, a putsch, a punch-up – and a visit from Hollywood actor Keanu Reeves.

    # # #

    I watched the European Parliament “debate” on El Jazeera – Farage, Shultz, Juncker, Le Pen. It was fun.

  49. Andy on 30/06/2016 at 12:58 pm said:

    Flexcit the Feature Movie:

    1 hour 23 mins long.

  50. Andy on 30/06/2016 at 1:07 pm said:

    Peak stupid from Joe Romm

    Wild claim from ‘Joltin Joe Romm’ at Think Progress: Global Warming Caused Brexit and the Rise of Trump

  51. Richard C (NZ) on 30/06/2016 at 1:09 pm said:

    From #Frexit

    The latest @Adamstoon1 #EUref cartoon…

  52. Richard C (NZ) on 30/06/2016 at 1:12 pm said:

    >#EUref cartoon…That’s Junker with Merkel

  53. Richard C (NZ) on 30/06/2016 at 1:42 pm said:

    ‘New EU president Jean-Claude Juncker to pocket £245,000 a year as Brussels’ top bureaucrat… and a £52,000 pension for life’

    # Former Luxembourg PM to earn £1.8million in pay and perks over five years
    # Juncker was appointed European Commission chief despite UK opposition
    # Cameron admitted Juncker’s appointment leaves Britain closer to EU exit

    # # #

    Scroll down and you get to this guy:

    European Council President Herman Van Rompuy

    I find Van Rompuy the most detestably arrogant superstatist totalitarian diktater of the 3 EU “Presidents”. A control-freak megalomaniac elitist windbag – if you get my drift. I couldn’t stand being in the EU just by him alone.

    The other EU “president” is Donald Tusk, President of the European Council.

  54. Andy on 30/06/2016 at 1:57 pm said:

    Farage’s barrage against Van Rumpuy is always worth seeing again..

    “The charisma of a damp rag and the appearance of a low grade bank clerk”

  55. Richard C (NZ) on 30/06/2016 at 2:08 pm said:

    Correction: >The other EU “president” is [Martin Schulz, President of the European Parliament].”

    And Tusk (Netherlands) took over from Van Rompuy (Belgium) as President of the European Council . From Wiki:

    President of the European Union (or President of Europe) does not exist. Nevertheless, the term is often misused to mean any of:

    President of the European Council (since 1 December 2014, Donald Tusk) [Poland]
    President of the European Commission (since 1 November 2014, Jean-Claude Juncker) [Luxembourg]
    President of the European Parliament (since 1 July 2014, Martin Schulz) [Germany]

    Shultz is a German Socialist with an attitude not unlike Van Rompuy:

    Tusk’s political position “emphasizes strong support for a free market economy with minimal government interference and cooperative relationships with other EU members”:

    Junker, well…….

    In early November 2014, just days after becoming head of the commission, Juncker was hit by media disclosures—derived from a document leak known as LuxLeaks—that Luxembourg under his premiership had turned into a major European centre of corporate tax avoidance. With the aid of the Luxembourg government, companies transferred tax liability for many billions of euros to Luxembourg, where the income was taxed at a fraction of 1%. Juncker, who in a speech in Brussels in July 2014 promised to “try to put some morality, some ethics, into the European tax landscape”, was sharply criticized following the leaks.[53] A subsequent motion of censure in the European parliament was brought against Juncker over his role in the tax avoidance schemes. The motion was defeated by a large majority

  56. Richard C (NZ) on 30/06/2016 at 2:17 pm said:

    Correction again (sigh):

    “And Tusk ([Poland]) took over from Van Rompuy (Belgium) as President of the European Council”

    Netherlands holds the Presidency of the Council of the European Union since 1 January 2016. President and Presidency are two different entities (weird, I know):

    Presidency of the Council of the European Union – Not to be confused with President of the European Council.

    Gee, how did I get confused by that?

  57. Richard C (NZ) on 30/06/2016 at 2:41 pm said:

    >”Farage’s barrage against Van [Rompuy]”

    Farage – who is challenging the Speaker of the Commons, John Bercow, in Buckingham at the general election – declared: “We were told that when we had a president, we’d see a giant global political figure, a man who would be the political leader for 500 million people, the man that would represent all of us on the world stage, the man whose job was so important that of course you’re paid more than President [Barack] Obama.”

    He continued: “Well, I’m afraid what we got was you … I don’t want to be rude but, really, you have the charisma of a damp rag and the appearance of a low-grade bank clerk and the question I want to ask is: ‘Who are you? I’d never heard of you. Nobody in Europe had ever heard of you.'”

    Farage went on: “I can speak on behalf of the majority of British people in saying that we don’t know you, we don’t want you, and the sooner you are put out to grass, the better.”

    The former Ukip leader told Van Rompuy: “I have no doubt that your intention is to be the quiet assassin of European democracy and of European nation states.” That, added Farage, was probably because Van Rompuy came from “pretty much a non-country” so had no interest in the nation state.

    Van Rompuy’s “out to grass” but is Donald Tusk “a giant global political figure, a man who would be the political leader for 500 million people [minus the UK now], the man that would represent all of us [except UK now] on the world stage, the man whose job was so important that of course you’re paid more than President [Barack] Obama.” ?

    Reduced responsibility – does he get a pay cut? I bet not. People outside the EU might ask “Who’s Donald Tusk?”. Maybe inside the EU too, I don’t know about that.

    Funny, maybe Donald Tusk and Donald Trump. One everyone knows, the other not so much.

  58. Andy on 30/06/2016 at 5:56 pm said:

    Herr Thomas of Hot Topic is the human incarnation of a Trabant car
    His ponderous comments get more ludicrous each time, like some civil servant from East Germany

  59. Andy on 30/06/2016 at 6:22 pm said:

    What I find interesting about faux Liberals is their complete lack of interest in opening their minds to any area outside their bubble of dogma

    They create this idea that “Brexit” was formed by a bunch of far right nationalists, when actually there are quite a lot on the left that want out too, not to mention business people, entrepreneurs, actors etc.

    Then they claim that “climate change” is something to do with this

    30-40 years of indoctrination is hard to undo

  60. Richard C (NZ) on 30/06/2016 at 8:14 pm said:


    So much more overlap than what your faux Liberals see as well defined camps. I don’t think they will ever get to grips with that or even try to. I find myself agreeing with viewpoints on Brexit (and the wider EU issues) from camps that I would not ordinarily agree with. It’s impossible to define other than Leave and Remain because there are so many reasons why people actually voted the way they did.

    But it comes down to democratic control in the end I think, on the part of Leave that is. I might be over simplistic but seems to me that’s it.

    It’s Scotland that bewilders me. I have Scottish roots and know its history but I really struggle to understand modern Scotland. They seem to have swallowed the Green Agenda and EU Superstatism wholesale. I see the EU flag being waved instead of the St Andrew’s Cross. I’ve talked to a Scots hardman about this and he thinks I’m seeing it wrong. He says the Scots are just taking the opportunity to get back at England because they were told by England that Scotland would not be part of the EU if they voted to leave the UK.

    I might have got that last bit a little wrong but something like that. I’ll see how it goes though, not sure my Scotsman is really reading his homeland right but he is far more familiar with ordinary Scots than I am. I really don’t know. My ancestors were protectors of the Scottish throne (see Red Comyn, Guardian of Scotland 1298-1301 and 1302-1304 below). At the Battle of Roslin in 1303, an invading English army led by Sir John Segrave was defeated by Red Comyn who was later stabbed by “The Bruce” who became King Robert I a month later.

    So OK, Scots uncomfortable with England but recently voted to stay in the UK. Historically calling in European backing against England and nowadays siding with the EU against England (maybe). My ancestors were also turncoats siding with England when it suited them just as Scots voted recently.

    Modern Scots behavior does go true to historical form which probably explains why I’m bewildered by them.

    Clan/Family Histories – Cumming/Comyn

  61. Richard C (NZ) on 30/06/2016 at 9:32 pm said:

    ‘Poland calls for Juncker to QUIT as other nations fume that EU has too much power’

    BREXIT fever is spreading across the Union as other member states call for the powers of the EU commission to be reined in – and for Jean Claude Juncker to stand down.

    By Zoie O’Brien PUBLISHED: 19:25, Tue, Jun 28, 2016

    Visegrad group countries are calling for the EU Commission’s powers to be curbed. After Britain’s shock vote to quit the EU, remaining countries are looking for better deals for themselves, and ordering the union to learn from its mistakes or face further calls for a total break up.

    Poland, Slovakia, Hungary and the Czech Republic called on Tuesday for the powers of the European Commission to be curbed with Warsaw calling for the dismissal of Mr Juncker, the executive’s head.

    Last week’s referendum alarmed governments in the former communist eastern region of the EU who had seen London as their main eurosceptic ally in efforts to reduce centralised control from Brussels.

  62. Andy on 01/07/2016 at 9:28 am said:

    Scotland bewilders me too. I usually go there twice a year for work. Politics there has become very toxic and the SNP can be blamed for much of this.

    I’m pretty sure it is driven by hatred of the English, “Tory English” in particular.

    This kind of intersectional politics is becoming all too common these days and politicians from Obama downwards are fuelling it.

  63. Andy on 01/07/2016 at 1:59 pm said:

    New dating app launched to make sure you never have to kiss a “leave” voter

  64. Andy on 01/07/2016 at 2:39 pm said:

    I copy this from a FB friend in Vancouver. Just to show how tragic our world has become

    Gosh it’s tough to live outside the MSM bubble in Vancouver. First I was kicked out of a dog training group because my climate skepticism was an affront to their ‘moral values’ (saving the planet), and now I’m a persona non grata with an exercise group because I am a Brexiteer…and obviously therefore a racist zenophobe who is probably also a right wing national extremist. (Oh, and I didn’t join in on the Trump-bashing like a normal person would, another dead give away). Sigh! It’s lonely out here in the non-MSM ‘real’ world…thank heavens I have virtual FB friends!

  65. Richard C (NZ) on 02/07/2016 at 8:52 am said:

    Slovakia have just taken over the EU Presidency from Netherlands. They are one of the countries calling for the powers of the European Commission to be curbed

    Hard to keep up with the EU revolving door.

  66. Andy on 02/07/2016 at 11:40 am said:

    This is another good article from someone on the Left that wants Brexit

  67. Andy on 02/07/2016 at 8:45 pm said:

    Herr Thomas of Hot Topic writes

    ‘Tomorrow’ they will want to hang Seitz, Singer, and the whole entourage of populist and fossil fuel industry-funded science deniers,

    Keeping up family traditions I guess, like suggesting people like me be sent to camps for some unknown fate.

    It’s really great to know we have friends like this in NZ

    Come round for a BBQ sometime?

  68. Andy on 03/07/2016 at 3:27 pm said:

    There are marches in London against democracy.

    These protesters are trying to get the referendum annulled so that they can stay in the anti-democratic EU

    Young people are verbally attacking old people, claiming that they have “stolen their future”, the same “young people” of whom 70% didn’t bother to vote.

  69. Andy on 04/07/2016 at 9:15 am said:

    Keeping on the “old people” subject, there seems to be quite a lot of this open bigotry displayed in the NZ MSM

    Yesterday’s Sunday Star Times had a dreadful piece about “intergenerational theft” from the baby boomers.

    Somehow, leaving the EU is depriving young people a future. I’m not quite sure what future they are referring to. Perhaps the huge youth unemployment in Spain, or the austerity measures in Greece

    I’m not sure if Swiss and Norwegian youth feel that their future has been destroyed by not being in the EU

  70. Andy on 04/07/2016 at 9:56 am said:

    “It’s Time for the Elites to Rise Up Against the Ignorant Masses
    The Brexit has laid bare the political schism of our time. It’s not about the left vs. the right; it’s about the sane vs. the mindlessly angry. ”

    If the “elites” are calling for an uprising against the untermenschen, then the gloves really are off.

  71. Richard C (NZ) on 04/07/2016 at 6:45 pm said:

    >”the Ignorant Masses”

    James Traub – “It is necessary to say that people are deluded and that the task of leadership is to un-delude them”

    Yes, like this:


    Forced labor as a “method of reeducation” was applied in Solovki prison camp as early as from 1920s,[28] based on Trotsky’s experiments with forced labor camps for Czech war prisoners from 1918 and his proposals to introduce “compulsory labor service” voiced in Terrorism and Communism.

    The Gulag institution was closed by the MVD order No 020 of January 25, 1960[33] but forced labor colonies for political and criminal prisoners continued to exist. Political prisoners continued to be kept in one of the most famous camps Perm-36[68] until 1987 when it was closed.

    1987 is not that long ago.

  72. Richard C (NZ) on 04/07/2016 at 7:06 pm said:

    EU: Going … Going … Gone, by Pater Tenebrarum • July 1, 2016

    Charlemagne – the first medieval central planner, who at the synod of Aachen in AD 789 and at the Council of Nijmegen in AD 806 introduced a “usury ban”, price controls, and a “ban on speculation”. In short, as soon as a new central power arose in Europe, it was all over with leaving people alone to do their thing in peace. If Europeans want to have free trade, do they really need a bureaucratic Leviathan in Brussels regulating every nook and cranny of their lives? No. All they need is the back of a napkin, on which they could write: “Henceforth, there will be no more tariffs between us” – and then shake hands on it. Alas, they probably won’t sleep as well anymore. Brussels has ensured that Europe’s citizens all sleep like babies: There are 109 EU regulations concerning pillows, 5 EU regulations concerning pillow cases, and 50 EU laws regulating duvets and sheets.

  73. Richard C (NZ) on 04/07/2016 at 7:43 pm said:

    >”There are marches in London against democracy. These protesters are trying to get the referendum annulled so that they can stay in the anti-democratic EU”

    I wonder if they have any clue as to the EU undercurrents? This one for example:

    ‘Brexit and the Derivatives Time Bomb’

    by Ellen Brown, an attorney, Founder of the Public Banking Institute, and author of twelve books including the best-selling Web of Debt.

    Sovereign debt – the debt of national governments – has ballooned from $80 trillion to $100 trillion just since 2008. Squeezed governments have been driven to radical austerity measures, privatizing public assets, slashing public services, and downsizing work forces in a futile attempt to balance national budgets. But the debt overhang just continues to grow.

    Austerity has been pushed to the limit and hasn’t worked. But default or renegotiating the debt seems to be off the table. Why? According to a June 25th article by Graham Summers on ZeroHedge:

    . . . EVERY move the Central Banks have made post-2009 has been aimed at avoiding debt restructuring or defaults in the bond markets. Why does Greece, a country that represents less than 2% of EU GDP, continue to receive bailouts instead of just defaulting?

    Summers’ answer – derivatives:

    [G]lobal leverage has exploded to record highs, with the sovereign bond bubble now a staggering $100 trillion in size. To top it off, over $10 trillion of this is sporting negative yields in nominal terms. . . .

    Globally, over $500 trillion in derivatives trade [is] based on bond yields.

    But Brexit changes everything, says Summers. Until now, the EU has been able to reject debt forgiveness as an alternative, using the threat of financial Armageddon if the debtor country left the EU. But Britain has left, and Armageddon hasn’t hit. Other Eurozone nations can now threaten to do the same if they don’t get debt forgiveness or a restructuring.

    The First Domino – Italy

    That has evidently started happening, with Italy as the first challenger of EU rules. On June 27th, Ambrose Evans-Pritchard reported in the UK Telegraph that the first serious casualty of the Brexit contagion had struck. The Italian government is preparing a €40 billion rescue of its financial system, as Italian bank shares collapse. The government is now studying a direct state recapitalization of Italian banks, to be funded by a special bond issue. They also want a moratorium of the bail-in rules and bondholder write-downs, although those steps are prohibited under EU laws.

    According to a June 28th editorial on ZeroHedge titled “The First Casualty of Brexit”:

    The likely outcome is that Italy’s [prime minister] Renzi will be “forced” to take matters into his own hands and enact a unilateral sovereign rescue of the Italian banking system in defiance of the EU, unless he wins concessions soon from Brussels. Those who know him say he will not go down in flames for the sake of European ideological purity.

    As a result, Brexit will be just the scapegoat used by Renzi and Italy to circumvent any specific eurozone prohibitions. And if it fails, all Renzi has to do is hint at a referendum of his own. Then watch as Merkel scrambles to allow Italy to do whatever it wants, just to avoid the humiliation of a potential “Italeave.”

    Behind the Italian Collapse: Brexit or Bail-ins? >>>>>>>

    # # #

    1) Italian banks were already in trouble before Brexit.

    2) European “ideological purity” will just end in a self-inflicted Death by a Thousand Cuts.

    3) The protesters want in on this?

  74. Andy on 05/07/2016 at 4:48 pm said:

    Seeing the 30,000 or so people in London protesting against the mandate of the people, waving a flag of a foreign power, doesn’t exactly fill me with joy

  75. Richard C (NZ) on 07/07/2016 at 2:38 pm said:

    >”2) European “ideological purity” will just end in a self-inflicted Death by a Thousand Cuts.”

    A variation on that theme:

    ‘The beauty beneath Brexit’s bedwetting’ – by Irvine Welsh

    “Remain’s leaders would have kept us straitjacketed into the EU’s current death-by-a-thousand-cuts version of corporate neoliberalism.”

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